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Why does the NHS not back CD and VLCD?

#1
After watching a few programmes on TV about weight lost surgery, why isn’t more said about and done about VLCD diets like CD. As usual these programmes point the finger at overweight people, normally showing pictures of them stuffing there faces with cakes and junk food, implying that’s all we ever do, then go on to say how much surgery will cost for Gastric bands etc.

I have spent a life time trying to lose weight, I know about food and nutrition, I have changed my eating habits, no sugar, no butter, I try to watch what I eat (yes, I know I’m not perfect), but still weight went on.

I dieted for four / five months at a time (many times), losing a pound a week and managing to up to lose 2 stones (wow wee), for me to slowly come of it and over next year or two put back on and move. To the point I have just become completely fed up with dieting so I didn’t and slowly my weight crept up.

I had to do something about it and I found stumbled across CD, what a change in six weeks I lost more than any diet before. I see quick changes, yes I know all the books tell to lose weight slowing, but hell, I can lose it quickly see the changes and feel better and then worry about maintaining it, with the other diets I never ever get to the point where I need to worry about maintaining my weight, as never lost enough.

So with this great epidemic of obesity as we are kept being told why isn’t the NHS doing more to promote VLCD, its works look at all the people on this site who have lost many many stones.
 
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#2
I totally totally totally agree!! I heard about this diet by chance in a passing conversation at work, researched it and was instantly amazed at the quick weight losses, nutritional value and gr8 support system. It was by pure luck that I found out about it and I only wish i'd known about it sooner! I have stuck with it and it has probably been the only truly healthy diet I have done and stuck to as i've always been a typical yo-yo dieter before, I never imagined my resolve for anything could be so strong and thats all down to CD not just helping me lose weight but educating and making me change my way of thinking!

I think CD is fantastic and I always feel like telling everyone who is struggling with their weight to join! xxx
 

Angela83

Silver Member
#3
My thoughts exactly but I do remember my practice nurse saying that the obesity clinic in Aberdeen (I'm guessing it's NHS) did approve of Lighter life. I think VLCD's should be promoted, it's definately not for everyone but surely would be better than surgery. CD was first started in hospitals. The thing with VLCD's is that it takes food completely out of the equation and you get to learn what your triggers are for overeating, it's a real learning curve.
 
#4
Hi there
My doctor was very encouraging for me to go on the cd diet. She has even perscribed reductil and is monitoring me every two weeks too.

I though all doctos were in favour?
 

Jaycey

Post-Menopausal Maniac!
#5
I asked exactly the same question yesterday, after a bit of a sniffy appointment with my doctor ("I don't really approve"!).

The reason she gave was that nearly everyone puts the weight back on afterwards, in her experience - and it's 'extreme'. So..... surgery for gastric band/jaw wiring/stomach stapling is NOT extreme then?! Hello? :rolleyes: (And don't tell me they retrain people's dietary habits because they don't - we've all read in magazines about people who try to squash cake through their wired jaws!)

If CD (and LL for that matter) could convince the Government that they have proper maintenance programmes, they might stand a chance - but unfortunately the mere mention of VLCDs just seems to make the NHS's hair stand on end, and they just get shoved straight into the 'fad diet' category, along with Atkins and all the others.

Don't know what to suggest, sorry! (Any nurses or doctors lurking here BTW? They might be able to give us an 'official' answer!) :)
 

Lexie_dog

UNLEASHING THE BEAST!
#7
Honestly?

I'm a student nurse, so not qualified yet, but...

Atkins can be a healthy diet, if you follow it properly. Eat good quality proteins, good fats and lots of vegetables, then working up the "rungs" to include fruits, more veggies etc. Eliminating all the rubbish that passes for food.

Unfortunately people don't do this. They eat just meat and wonder why they are sick, or use it as an excuse to have a full English every morning and wonder why thier cholesterol markers go up.

Xenical endorsed by the HNS has the same problems "Oh I was on that it was terrible, I pooed myself in the car after I ate 4 cheeseburgers and a deep fried small child". The full point is that you are supposed to stick to LOW FAT for it to be as effective as possible.

Can you imagine the same thing with CD? A diet very low in calories but so researched and balanced that the imperitive focus of it is to make sure you have your three shakes a day? To protect your lean muscle and ensure good health.

Think of all the people who would try to skip shakes, to lose weight quicker and end up sick. Then obviously as per Atkins and Xenical the problem would HAVE to be the diet.

Then theres the people who would not drink thier water.

Then theres the public outcry of "our taxmoney pays for these fatties, you got fat on your own, get thin on your own", especially given the maintenance and cheating issues with CD. It just wouldnt be effective if no-one stuck to it, would become a huge drain/waste of money and ultimately branded as ineefective, wven though its the individual and not the product thats at fault.

I know the backlash that started when Dr's were allowed to refer people to Weight Watchers and the gym, the problem is people don't want thier tax money routed into "fat people" because not only are we destroying the planet (apparently) but we're also now assuming that other people will pay for us to remedy our own responsibility.

Edited to add: Think of the public perception of anorexics. "I lived on 400 calories a day", and then the NHS fund a diet which is 450 calories a day but with strict protocols as to who can and can't use it. i.e BMI over 30. Then you have people either trying to devise their own version of it and getting ill, or as I see with xenical and Reductil on a daily basis, getting fat friends to get it from the doctor and pass/sell it on, making the unintended recipient unmonitored whilst receiving drugs and potentially very ill.
 

Lexie_dog

UNLEASHING THE BEAST!
#8
Further to add, I remember seeing a thread on the pink CD board a few years back where someone had devised thier own version of CD working out at like £1 a day. It consisted of skimmed milk, multivitamins and protein powder. On paper the values looked similar but without qualified research theres no way that would even be considered safe. But thats what you are up against.

Even think of the people on here, who still look to "speed up thier metabolism" whilst on CD, despite CD stating not to as its potentially dangerous.
 
#9
Thats a very interesting post Lexie, and a point of view I have not thought of.

But surly for the masses CD and other VCLD would be much better value than Surgery. Perhaps it should be viewed as 'virtual' surgery and put through similar vigors to someone having an operation.
 

Lexie_dog

UNLEASHING THE BEAST!
#10
Thats a very interesting post Lexie, and a point of view I have not thought of.

But surly for the masses CD and other VCLD would be much better value than Surgery. Perhaps it should be viewed as 'virtual' surgery and put through similar vigors to someone having an operation.
I think the VLCD or similar was initially developed to prepare for surgery, but given the protocols for gastic banding for example and the amount of money it costs to put 1 person through, between surgery, consultations, after care clinics etc

Think of the money that say 30 people on CD would use, don't forget you are looking at the following.

Someone who is 5 foot 7, and has 6 stone to lose.

They have to have 4 shakes a day. Those 4 shakes have to palatable, convenient and within collection points. Straight away you have to think where are they getting thier shakes? Do the NHS vet the counsellors? How do you decide which counsellor you go to? Is it a gegraphical split, so what happens then if the counsellors a bit mince? Are you paying for the persons travelling expenses too? Hospital appointments are much more infrequect than the one to one support that would be needed on CD.

Do you then budget the NHS provided packs to shakes only? as Tetras and Bars are more expensive. If its shakes only do you pay for the blender? As CDCs are self employed and can set thier own prices, if its a referral by doctor would they increase the NHS shake price? It might only be an extra £0.15p per shake but over the week that makes a difference. Over 50 patients a week thats a huge difference.

How often does the GP do various blood tests to monitor the haemodynamics of the patients due to ketones (which some people still don't understand)?

Do they still require a dietician referral?

How many goes do you get on it before you get "cut off" like IVF only gets 3 goes?

Back to our 5 foot 7 6 stone to lose patient. 4 shakes a day. £1.85 * 4*7 = £51.80 per week. For 6 months on SS (say 24 weeks ) thats £1250. If they stick to it. Then you add in the deviations, the cheats, the derailments, the missed appointments, the regained weight ("because I get it for free anyway")

I know that on a case by base basis in a scenario where people stick to it, they will be cheaper and less endangered by surgery but honestly, the mistrust in peoples management of thier diet would be the main factor. In that sense its not cost effective. Just by sheer volume.

Think of all the interventions for smokers and diabetics? Think of all the people who don't finish thier medicines, who never complete a course of anti-biotics. Non-compliance is the biggest drain on the health system.

I know I've went on a bit but it opens up a whole debate.

Sorry if I seem to be "getting at "anyone, I'm genuinely not.
 
#11
I think as VLCD is our "food" we should not be able to get this on the NHS as i would not expect them to feed me so to speak, ... if that makes any sense and could be why it's not part of the nhs my doctor wanted me on this diet she had done lipotrim and said she wished she could dish it out but felt people would abuse it, - i am spending more on our weekly food budget but see it as a good thing as when i can get i have decided to go completely organic i only do half & half at the moment not buying crap will let me have wonderful orgainic meats and veg a real tasty meal i can't wait !
 
#12
You make a lot of good points Lexie, but we see how Obesity is high priority for NHS and how the problems caused by obesity is costing the NHS.

I'm not suggesting the NHS pay for the food replacements, as said by wannabe, it is our food, but they could put in place WI and counseling at the local doctors and actively help, encourage and monitor as done with smokeing.
 

Jaycey

Post-Menopausal Maniac!
#13
Thanks very much, Lexie, we needed to hear that.

The trouble is, though - basically, people are crap! :eek: (Lots of obese people don't give two hoots about it, so trying to make them do anything they don't want to do must be well night impossible - judging by some of those on TV anyway. And the 'nanny state' doesn't want to come over as too nannying, I wouldn't have thought? At the end of the day, people should be taking responsibility for themselves.)
 

Lexie_dog

UNLEASHING THE BEAST!
#14
You make a lot of good points Lexie, but we see how Obesity is high priority for NHS and how the problems caused by obesity is costing the NHS.

I'm not suggesting the NHS pay for the food replacements, as said by wannabe, it is our food, but they could put in place WI and counseling at the local doctors and actively help, encourage and monitor as done with smokeing.
I do see where you are coming from, the problem with that aspect of it is that the NHS will argue they have state approved dieticians and nutritionists in place available to most, if not all surgeries. Mines was not the best for me, it has to be said though, found the advice confusing and a bit vague at times. The NHS mantra seems to be centred around "eat less, move more" which is great, but people respond to different things, so I agree that more options available would be nice.

Thanks very much, Lexie, we needed to hear that.

The trouble is, though - basically, people are crap! :eek: (Lots of obese people don't give two hoots about it, so trying to make them do anything they don't want to do must be well night impossible - judging by some of those on TV anyway. And the 'nanny state' doesn't want to come over as too nannying, I wouldn't have thought? At the end of the day, people should be taking responsibility for themselves.)
I wouldn't believe what I see on TV, given that its electively edited for entertainment :p. Its like any other addiction, the desire to quit has to be there. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Well this is an interesting thread.
 

exp107

Silver Member
#15
I agree with Lexie, it has to be personal choice for the patient to have the conviction and dedication required to follow such a strict regime, I can see the other side of things and feel that doctors should be more supportive of the individual patients decision, if you need the form signing the last thing you want is a lecture from your GP at least you are attempting to do something about 'your' problem and I found that the support I got from my GP went a long way towards my resolve to do the diet, stick with it and get the results and I'm sure he'd be gobsmacked now to see me 4 months on and 4 stone lighter :)
 

Fr00b

Full Member
#16
I think the VLCD or similar was initially developed to prepare for surgery, but given the protocols for gastic banding for example and the amount of money it costs to put 1 person through, between surgery, consultations, after care clinics etc

Think of the money that say 30 people on CD would use, don't forget you are looking at the following.

Someone who is 5 foot 7, and has 6 stone to lose.

They have to have 4 shakes a day. Those 4 shakes have to palatable, convenient and within collection points. Straight away you have to think where are they getting thier shakes? Do the NHS vet the counsellors? How do you decide which counsellor you go to? Is it a gegraphical split, so what happens then if the counsellors a bit mince? Are you paying for the persons travelling expenses too? Hospital appointments are much more infrequect than the one to one support that would be needed on CD.

Do you then budget the NHS provided packs to shakes only? as Tetras and Bars are more expensive. If its shakes only do you pay for the blender? As CDCs are self employed and can set thier own prices, if its a referral by doctor would they increase the NHS shake price? It might only be an extra £0.15p per shake but over the week that makes a difference. Over 50 patients a week thats a huge difference.

How often does the GP do various blood tests to monitor the haemodynamics of the patients due to ketones (which some people still don't understand)?

Do they still require a dietician referral?

How many goes do you get on it before you get "cut off" like IVF only gets 3 goes?

Back to our 5 foot 7 6 stone to lose patient. 4 shakes a day. £1.85 * 4*7 = £51.80 per week. For 6 months on SS (say 24 weeks ) thats £1250. If they stick to it. Then you add in the deviations, the cheats, the derailments, the missed appointments, the regained weight ("because I get it for free anyway")

I know that on a case by base basis in a scenario where people stick to it, they will be cheaper and less endangered by surgery but honestly, the mistrust in peoples management of thier diet would be the main factor. In that sense its not cost effective. Just by sheer volume.

Think of all the interventions for smokers and diabetics? Think of all the people who don't finish thier medicines, who never complete a course of anti-biotics. Non-compliance is the biggest drain on the health system.

I know I've went on a bit but it opens up a whole debate.

Sorry if I seem to be "getting at "anyone, I'm genuinely not.
Throwing this into the mix... I started my VLCD journey using Lipotrim, which actually was recommended to me by my G.P. and they run the programme at my surgery. I went every week to the Healthcare Assistant who weighed me, took my blood pressure and gave me the shakes, which I paid for. I would not expect the NHS to pay for my 'food' so why would the pay for the shakes?

My surgery are very positive about VLCD and have hundreds of people successfully following Lipotrim. I'm all for the NHS promoting these diets... because they work!
 
#17
before i started CD in Oct 2008, i went to see the nurse for my contraceptive pills, and was stunned as i had not seen her for 6 months, she had lost 6 stone with slimming world, inspired i joined SW in the first week lost 3lb and 1lb in the second, knowing this slow weight loss would not see me through, i thought of slim fast (never heard of CD) it was then i came across this forum and CD :D
Inspired by the photos i started straight away, anyway yesterday was my 6 month prescription, and i am 3 stone down :D an the nurse i see has put all her weight back on and then some :( i told her i was following CD and she really was not happy about it, she said CD is an 'extreme form of losing weight and VLCD are only intended for a short period of time to prepare for surgery!!'
I came out repremanded :copon:and thinking to myself 'blummin cheek really, how can (and dont get me wrong, she is a lovely girl) a extremely overweight nurse tell me off for losing weight on CD, when i am getting all my nutrients needed !!' :eek:
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Jaycey

Post-Menopausal Maniac!
#18
before i started CD in Oct 2008, i went to see the nurse for my contraceptive pills, and was stunned as i had not seen her for 6 months, she had lost 6 stone with slimming world, inspired i joined SW in the first week lost 3lb and 1lb in the second, knowing this slow weight loss would not see me through, i thought of slim fast (never heard of CD) it was then i came across this forum and CD :D
Inspired by the photos i started straight away, anyway yesterday was my 6 month prescription, and i am 3 stone down :D an the nurse i see has put all her weight back on and then some :( i told her i was following CD and she really was not happy about it, she said CD is an 'extreme form of losing weight and VLCD are only intended for a short period of time to prepare for surgery!!'
I came out repremanded :copon:and thinking to myself 'blummin cheek really, how can (and dont get me wrong, she is a lovely girl) a extremely overweight nurse tell me off for losing weight on CD, when i am getting all my nutrients needed !!' :eek:
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Hahaha - now I'm sure you're a lovely sweet and non-vindictive lady, but I bet you felt good!!! :D:D:D Look at the funny side of it, and don't let it get you down. ;)

Dieting is horses for courses really - I lost a stone at Slimming World, and there were two men there who had both lost nine stone on it. Fine for them, but not for me (I put my stone back on as soon as I left it!). As a doctor friend of mine said to me recently, "It's what's right for YOU!" - nobody, not even a nurse, should damn a diet if it's plainly working for you (imho). :eek:
 

Lexie_dog

UNLEASHING THE BEAST!
#19
Throwing this into the mix... I started my VLCD journey using Lipotrim, which actually was recommended to me by my G.P. and they run the programme at my surgery. I went every week to the Healthcare Assistant who weighed me, took my blood pressure and gave me the shakes, which I paid for. I would not expect the NHS to pay for my 'food' so why would the pay for the shakes?

My surgery are very positive about VLCD and have hundreds of people successfully following Lipotrim. I'm all for the NHS promoting these diets... because they work!
Thats good that there are other options explored. And i'm glad to see you had a supportive health care practitioner to help you through it. If only Lipotrim did more flavours, I'm sure the success rate would be a lot higher.
 


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