VLCD menu based diet

Thanks for your comments,
I will share all on this thread as and when I "get it together"

I will try it for myself of course!

Regarding the comments about starvation mode - Taken, but fasting is a natural way for humans to be and is even embodied in many religions - Lent, ramadam (although without the gorging in the evening). I see using a VLCD as a way of controlling weight safely.

I have been looking at what makes the LL meals and bars nutritionally complete - it just seems to be a bunch of vitamins and minerals - so unless I am mistaken, it should be very easy to come up with an appropriate set of menus to be accompanied by a quality multi-vitamin supplement.
 
Thanks for your comments,
I will share all on this thread as and when I "get it together"

I will try it for myself of course!

Regarding the comments about starvation mode - Taken, but fasting is a natural way for humans to be and is even embodied in many religions - Lent, ramadam (although without the gorging in the evening). I see using a VLCD as a way of controlling weight safely.

Most people that follow fasting traditions have done so since childhood and on the whole eat extremely healthily in between. They fast for religious reasons, not for loosing a few pounds. Fasting for health reasons is very different. It is thought healthy to fast for different medical conditions, but fasting is only recommended to be undertaken for short spells usually twice a year (during the spring and Autumn months). Fasting isn't recomended for weight maintenance.



In your original post you mentioned only using a vlcd if you have overindulged after reaching goal and have put on a little weight. But if your BMI were still between 20 -25 then using a vlcd that puts you into ketosis wouldn't be healthy. If you are in ketosis and don't have a lot of body fat then lean muscle tissue would be used for energy, therefore possibly putting strain on the heart.

I have been looking at what makes the LL meals and bars nutritionally complete - it just seems to be a bunch of vitamins and minerals - so unless I am mistaken, it should be very easy to come up with an appropriate set of menus to be accompanied by a quality multi-vitamin supplement.



I only mention these things as other forum members seem very interested in your ideas and I feel that I should draw attention to any possible risks.

Tracey
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I have to say that this thread has really piqued my interest. I've avoided saying anything (well...except for my short message earlier), but am always interested in how people plan to maintain their weight once at goal. So, please don't think I'm having a go/trying to argue.

I'm just curious.

try to formulate a healthy VLCD that I can use from time to time as needed to control my weight - e.g before or after a holiday, or after a business trip with hotel/restaurant meals.

But, assuming that your CBT with LL works, then surely you wont need to:confused: Or perhaps not need to take such extreme measures.

Are you sure it's not going to work for you? It may do ya know ;)

I know that when I returned from holidays pre VLCD, I could put on close to a stone, but since doing all the head stuff:rolleyes: I went to Canada for a couple of weeks, didn't deprive myself of anything, thoroughly enjoyed my food, yet came home only 4lbs heavier. I just didn't feel the need to overeat whilst I was there. Just enjoyed the different flavours and textures...that was enough.

It was quickly lost by just taking a few days of extra awareness over what I was eating.

Assuming you have done the necessary therapy that you've paid for, and put it into action, you may not put on anything. But just say you put on a similar amount. I would think that you would lose it very quickly on any type of VLCD. What happens then? Will you do the RTM again, or an Atkins version of replenishing you glycogen to stop the gain?

Or will you go under target to account for that?

It just seems so harsh, besides being possibly quite psychologically damaging, just to lose a few pounds:confused:

But there again, perhaps you only intend to do this after a larger gain? Yo-yo ing up and down. I know people do this, but it just seems like a heck of a waste of money doing the CBT if that is what you plan is. Besides, I've never heard of people planning to do it before they reach goal ;)

So anyway. These thoughts have been going through my head since the start of the thread, and I just can't keep it to myself any longer:eek: I really am just interested


Atkins shake 10 cals 2g carb 15g protein

Crikey Soraya. That was one tiny shake :D Hope you enjoyed it.
 
I have to say that this thread has really piqued my interest. I've avoided saying anything (well...except for my short message earlier), but am always interested in how people plan to maintain their weight once at goal. So, please don't think I'm having a go/trying to argue.

I'm just curious.

Thanks for that - all comments are welcome and help to enlighten me.

But, assuming that your CBT with LL works, then surely you wont need to:confused: Or perhaps not need to take such extreme measures.

Are you sure it's not going to work for you? It may do ya know ;)

The CBT will work fine (I hope!).

My LLC has pointed out several times that people without weight problems have a weight that fluctuates naturally, and that they put on weight (for example on holiday) and then lose it by cutting back.

I don't really see how CBT can stop you putting on a few pounds when you eat out on holiday for 2 weeks - even if you eat carefully!

This is just my version of what people used to do before/after a holiday.

Poeple do it all the time in dangerous ways - slimfast, starvation, vinegar and honey, miracle cabbage soup. This will be a healthy way to get the body back in tune after a little indulgence - that is all.


Assuming you have done the necessary therapy that you've paid for, and put it into action, you may not put on anything. But just say you put on a similar amount. I would think that you would lose it very quickly on any type of VLCD. What happens then? Will you do the RTM again, or an Atkins version of replenishing you glycogen to stop the gain?

Or will you go under target to account for that?

It just seems so harsh, besides being possibly quite psychologically damaging, just to lose a few pounds:confused:

But there again, perhaps you only intend to do this after a larger gain? Yo-yo ing up and down. I know people do this, but it just seems like a heck of a waste of money doing the CBT if that is what you plan is. Besides, I've never heard of people planning to do it before they reach goal ;)

In my line of work it is sometimes very difficult not to eat and it is often in hotels/restaurants/pubs where you are at the mercy of the chef. All I want to do is be able to easily control my weight after a period that might happen without resoprting to the sups and shakes again - This is what many people seem to do anyway - so surely a real-food VLCD would be better for the odd week or two than going back onto chemical mixes??

There would be no need to do RTM again - RTM is not there to replenish glycogen (though of course that does happen when on RTM). The liver can store 2000 calories as glycogen. When storing glycogen, the body can usually only "collect" about 1000 calories a day for this purpose. If your body works well when in ketosis, then there should be no issue in transferring straight to your "normal" diet afterwards. Remember all that I am doing is cutting the calories for a few days. The diet I suggest will be what I would probably be eating normally, but with some of the "bad" stuff left out (carbs). The old way of doing it was to cut back on potatoes, bread and rice. This will be 100% healthy nutritionally complete with reduced calories. Whether that will be 800 kcals or 1000/1200/1500 I will have to try and see.

For me ketosis will help as the hunger disappears, but maybe the new me will feel no hunger at 1500 kcals per day - if so great!

This will not be damaging psychologically for me, though I can see that going back on the packs might be for some people that have not understood their relationship with food.

This is not yo-yo dieting it is just cutting back to keep trim.

I intend to do a lowGL diet as my way of life and control blood sugar levels by reducing sugars and processed/refined carbs and adding complex carbs and protein.

If you have evidence of ketosis being dangerous when used for a couple of weeks in people with a BMI of 25 or below, I'd really like to see it please as it would affect my plans. Is there anything like this?

Thanks for your comments - I really look forward to more as it will help me learn and plan.
 
Also - I found this which sums up ketosis simply - there are many more detailed descriptions on the net but this is short and simple:

Ketosis and health

Ketosis is a biochemical condition that occurs when the body produces ketones at a higher rate than it produces glucose.



Ketone bodies provide energy for the body's needs when there is a total food restriction, carbohydrate restriction, and/or long enough physical effort.



So, ketosis is a natural body's state. It switches the body from the biochemical mode when carbohydrates are used for fuel to the 'fat burning' mode when to produce the ketones, body's fat is being released.



The dangerous state is keto-acidosis, not ketosis, and it can happen in people with diabetes.
 
Hi Mikey

I've been having a good old read and my poor google search now needs a breather.

Because the title of your thread includes 'VLCD' I was worried that you were planning to follow a plan under 800 cals per day on a regular basis to maintain. Of course it's your body and your decision if you were to do this but I was concerned that some others who maybe haven't dealt with the head work may follow this idea and this could lead them to have bigger problems both mentally and physically.

When I was first maintaining I would at the slightest gain dip back into cd packs and whether it be cd/ll/atkins whatever diet, it really isnt healthy mentally for a lot of people. I learnt my lesson and now don't do it. I didn't have the CBT that you receive at LighterLife so hopefully you will be fine in that respect. I now pay privately for CBT and am in a much better place.

I hope you can understand why I felt I needed to debate this issue.

It seems this isn't your aim however and you are looking at following a higher calorie plan which may put you in a mild state of ketosis. Any plan over 800 cals isn't a VLCD so I'm sorry I got a little confused.

I've been reading a lot of the Atkins theories and according to what I've read, if you are only mildly in ketosis and you keep the calorie content high with proteins they feel this has no adverse effect on your lean muscle tissue even if you have a BMI under 25. They do stress that calorie levels have to be quite high though.

Have you worked out how many calories you'll need to maintain your goal weight? There is a good website called weight loss resourses that is quite helpful. You can work out your maintainance cal allowance and also can enter all foods eaten to see how many cals you've had that day. It keeps me on the straight and narrow (well most of the time;))

Tracey
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Thanks Tracey,
What amazes me is that there has not been enough research done into low carb and vlc diets.

It would be much easier f there was more information.

Atkins teaches that to go into ketosis, you need 20 grammes of carbs per day or less (RDA is 300'ish) and that calories do not stop ketosis.

VLCD's have much higher carb content than this. The cranberry raspberry bar I have just eaten contained 20 gms carbs by itself - a whole day's ration on Atkins induction.

So who knows the truth - I wish I did.

It cannot be calorie restriction that caused ketosis as on Atkins you can eat thousands of kcals and remain in ketosis. It must therefore (I guess) be carb restriction that causes this as both diets have this in common. Obviously 20 gms/day is probably less than is required to go into ketosis, but I have no idea what is required. I guess (again) thta this will be different from person to person, but what are the averages?

My aim is to eat healthily, and have a diet (not in the weightloss sense) that I can tailor to suit my lifestyle.

I think ketosis will be an important part of this but only when required (after over-indulging at Christmas for example).

In any case, it seems that there are lots of VLCD's available for £40 - £90 per week and I would have thought that it should be possible to build a VLCD using a proper meal plan. I might look into doing this too for those with a BMI > 30.
 
My LLC has pointed out several times that people without weight problems have a weight that fluctuates naturally, and that they put on weight (for example on holiday) and then lose it by cutting back.

But if they do, then 'normal' people, as opposed to those who eat to appease the scales, do this cutting back naturally. They don't think about it.

I don't really see how CBT can stop you putting on a few pounds when you eat out on holiday for 2 weeks - even if you eat carefully!
My husband and 2 sons don't put on weight over a holiday. In fact, my DH can't understand why you would. He thinks exactly the opposite...that you should possibly lose if you haven't got 'weight issues'. My sons feel like that too. I drag them to the restaurants and cafes to fill my need...not theirs. For them, though the food is good, it is a bit of a hassle to stop what you're doing to eat.

I do believe, that I'm beginning to got that way too:eek: Love my food and all that, but it's just a minor part in my life. I eat to live, rather than living to eat.

Assuming you will put on weight on holiday, and will need to get it off, is really a dieting mindset. Very common, and certainly suggests to me that food issues are still prevalent. If that's the case, then in my opinion, the issues need sorting more than anything.

Dieting to me is a bit like a smoker who buys cough mixture for the cough = someone overweight going on a diet. Of course, many people smoke, notice the cough, buy the cough mixture, it gets better, they continue to smoke, cough gets bad again....more mixture.

Then that person decides to have therapy to stop smoking. Cough disappears, but they are going on holiday, and of course, many ex-smokers want a holiday from their quit, whereas a non-smoker will have a fine enough time without the need of a fag.

So do we prepare the cough mixture for the ex-smoker assuming he will smoke on holiday? That's what it sounds like your doing.

Of course..you're not the only one :D

Poeple do it all the time in dangerous ways - slimfast, starvation, vinegar and honey, miracle cabbage soup.
I wouldn't say that slimfast was dangerous. Not that I would chose it mind you.
In my line of work it is sometimes very difficult not to eat and it is often in hotels/restaurants/pubs where you are at the mercy of the chef.
How easy it is will depend on how 'cured' you are.
so surely a real-food VLCD would be better for the odd week or two than going back onto chemical mixes??
Ah, but I wouldn't advocate going on a VLCD chemical mix or real-food.

If your body works well when in ketosis, then there should be no issue in transferring straight to your "normal" diet afterwards.
My knowledge of ketosis is limited to the basics. I must admit though that I have never heard of a ketogenic diet that doesn't have a gradual increase in carbs at the end of it. I know that if I cut my carbs, the scales do scare me to death when I introduce them again.

T
he diet I suggest will be what I would probably be eating normally, but with some of the "bad" stuff left out (carbs).
:cry: I love carbs. Consider many to be very healthy.

This will not be damaging psychologically for me, though I can see that going back on the packs might be for some people that have not understood their relationship with food.
Ah, I see. So basically, you understand that you have an eating problem. You know your relationship with food is still out of balance?

This is not yo-yo dieting it is just cutting back to keep trim.
Um. But cutting back in the harshest of ways. Eating less that your body needs. I just wonder how necessary this would be.

If you have evidence of ketosis being dangerous when used for a couple of weeks in people with a BMI of 25 or below, I'd really like to see it please as it would affect my plans. Is there anything like this?
I don't. I assume it wouldn't be dangerous. I do feel though that you could do with working on a little more of the head stuff though ;)
 
I have to say that what you surmise from my posts is at odds with what is actually the case - still never mind.
 
No Atkins doesn't say less than 20g of carbs per day ... it does not promote this at all. It is a minimum of 20g per day and you can still be in ketosis on 80g per day ... depending on the individual.

OK - it is 20 gms max - which means the same - I am talking about induction here - the carbs only rise after induction and then in small stages until ketosis stops and then they are backed off a little from that point.
 
Obviously 20 gms/day is probably less than is required to go into ketosis, but I have no idea what is required. I guess (again) thta this will be different from person to person, but what are the averages?

I believe the average woman goes into ketosis on about 50-60g (albeit only a mild state). Men would be a little higher.

But it is also 20gm minimum. Which doesn't mean the same. While in induction you must have the 20gm .... the reason being that carbs are the ONLY source of energy for the brain.

Agree with that, though I thought that you should aim for 15-20g for induction...and only for 2 weeks.
 
I've been at work and have missed lots of this debate this evening, it's been very interesting reading everyone's comments.

I havent got anything really to add just that I have lots of slim friends and famiy members who have never been overweight. I'd never thought about their eating habits in the past as I was too wrapped up in my own eating issues to notice.

Now I do take notice, and have learnt that they just eat a balanced diet, simple as that.

For years I've either cut out fats when that was the trend, then cut out carbs because that was the latest diet and in all that time I yoyo'd from being overweight to obese, never at goal, always depriving myself and making up for it with a binge here and there, never happy. I followed CD and finally got to a weight that I was happy and proud of, but years of yoyoing and cutting out this and that was a hard habit to break, so went into maintenance doing exactly the same thing I had always done.

I now have fat, carbs, sugars you name it:eek: and am finally happy, I'm not depriving myself of any food group and more importantly I'm not putting on any weight.

Mikey I felt exactly the same as you as I approached goal, you've worked really hard to lose your weight and the weightloss is precious and needs to be protected. Unfortunately in most cases yoyo maintaining dosent work. It is so easy to get back into the overeat then starve rut and this does eventually lead to weight gain for the majority.

Lol! I started this post saying I had nothing to add, lordy only knows how long the post would have been if I'd had a point to make;):D

Tracey
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Obviously issues that concern us all - I do not see it as yo-yo and certainly would not use it that way.

Regarding carbs and brain food, the brain uses glucose as fuel.When you eat carbs, the body converts the carbs to glucose. This is a relatively easy and quick process expecially if the carbs are already processed to provide the energy easily! The blood sugar produced can easily be too much (especially with processed quick release carb/sugars that we all know are bad for us). High blood sugar levels can lead to severe illness and indeed death, so the body has a method to control blood sugar - insulin. Insulin converts the blood sugar to fat (it does a few other things too).

As in most things there is a ying and a yang - and for insulin, the yang is glucagon.

Glucagon and insulin are antagonistic in action. Glucagon is secreted by alpha cells of the islet of Langerhans and insulin by beta cells. Insulin decreases blood sugar level and glucagon increases blood sugar level. Insulin level increases after feeding on carbs and glucagon level rises in fasting condition.

So insulin takes excess blood sugar and turns it to fat when eating a lot of carbs, and glycagon takes excess fat and converts it to blood sugar in times of no carbs (and in ketosis).

As the brain runs on glucose - blood sugar, you do not need any carbs to keep your brain going as it will function perfectly using the glucose made from your own fat!

The transfer period from insulin / sugar burning metabolism to glycagon / fat burning metabolism is why some people feel sickness and have headaches when going into ketosis.

I hope that helps this discussion move on to the next level (whatever that is) ;-)
 
The paln is coming together. It will be a high protein low carb meal plan with limited fats. The carbsd will be low GL - mainly Green leafy veggies, and legumes plus a small amount of slow energy release carbs such as bulgart wheat, couscous, Quinoi and brown rice.

There will be no bread (apart form low GL breads such as rye bread), pasta, potato, white rice, instead there will be plenty of fibrous veggies and low sugar fruits.

Lots of water, the odd tea and coffee and no soft drinks.

A glass of red wine, or dry white wine, or a spirit will be allowed daily on the 1200 kcal plan.

More soon ...
 
Hiya, interesting to see what you are planning here Mike.

I am following Atkins at the moment, am on Induction (15g carbs up to a max of 20g each day) and find everything you have written about ketosis, carbs etc. very interesting and I agree that my resarch into the subject matches with yours.

Would be good to see whether it works when you try it out and to find out if it gives you any side effects etc. I find Atkins is only do-able due to the lack of restrictions on calories, to eat low carb and low calorie I think for me would be impossible, its one or the other (i.e. low calorie with no carb restrictions except for what can be consumed within the carbs and trying to make healthy choices, or low carb with no calorie restrictions except for eating until you are comfortably full but not stuffed)

Have been watching your thread and think that the arguments/points made on here are all helpful and balanced, both for and against. Now I would just like to see if it works in practice. I am all for theory (I like to theorise with dieting too) but practice is a different story, not least actually being able to stick to the plan itself!

xx
 
Thanks for your comments and thoughts wannabslim. I used to think the way that you do regarding Atkins being do-able due to the higher calorie intake. Doing LL has made me re-evaluate the whole idea of ketosis and how the body can be put into it.

As I have said before I am amazed at the lack of research. I just wish there were more. I have had great success with Atkins previously as when ketosis kicks in, the hunger just goes. Ketosis is also the key in a VLCD.

The downside of LL is that it is unnatural - the foods are not 'real' and they do not have enough fats and animal proteins for me (in fact no animal protein). AtKins on the other hand is a more balanced diet (at least in the later stages) and is suitable as a way of life.

My research leads me to Glycaemic Load based diets as being the ultimate way of life once I get to my ideal weight, balancing natural fibrous carbs/veggies/legumes with protein and fat in a nutritionally complete manner.

My experiences show me that there are many myths that are perpetuated by big-business/government.

As one example - The low fat myth - if you eat fat - you will get fat - patently a load of old tosh. It is all based on the fact that in a bomb calorimeter fat can be completely burned and will give off 9 kcals of energy. As protein and carbs are only appros 4 kcals per gramme, it has been easy for us to be convinced that it is a very good idea to replace fat with (cheap) carbs. The fact that our bodies cannot burn fat and release the energy like a bomb calorimeter has been ignored. The fact that when we burn fat as a fuel, a by-product is ketones (approx 4 kcals/gm) that we flush out in breath, sweat and urine has been conveniently ignored. The fact that many oils and fats are used as a laxative (they simply come straight through you) has been conveniently ignored.

I believe controlling blood sugar is the key and that all (non-processed) foods are good (in moderation).

Anyway, I could go on and on, and I am sure that opther people have different ideas and experiences. All I know is that Atkins works for me, and that VLCD's work for me. The VLCD is easier, though weightloss with both is very fast indeed compared to a standard low-fat low cal diet.
 
I think you are panicking here Mikey.
You still have a way to go yet, you haven't even finished abstinence, let alone RTM, you still have at least 3 months of counselling to go and you have pretty much already decided you are going to fail at maintenance!
It does seem a bit extreme to do a VLCD or even an LCD just because you put on a couple of pounds on holiday.
I can see why you are worried, none of us want to get fat again, but keeping an eye on yourself and eating a balanced diet should keep you right, then if you do put on over a holiday it is quite easy to cut back to 1500 to lose a bit (or beforehand), even if you put on a stone (which is rather a lot, you would have to had to have had a bingefest, which would suggest you have more head issues to sort out)
you could lose that in a month, isn't that quite quick enough in reality?
Example: I went away for 10 days and put on 2lbs, that included eating out a fair bit, I did 1500-1550 cals for a week (without feeling hungry at all) and lost 3.6lbs.
Isn't that enough?
I find the idea a bit extreme for such a small problem, I have to say. (Using a hammer to crack a nut springs to mind)

Just because there are fat laden foods on the menu it doesn't mean you have to eat them for every meal or at all, all hotels/pubs/restaurants have healthier options these days, it is down to you to choose them rather than your old choices.
 
I think you are all being a little negative with Mike.

Ok so he hasn't got to goal or finished counselling or whatever else, but this could, just maybe, be his way of working through his problem and solutions to that.

You seem to forget that he is a bloke - this is what blokes do. They find solutions to problems.

If he does come up with a diet based on food, with good weight loss and do-ability then all power to him - he could write a book!

The other thing this diet could be great for is diabetics.
Imagine just being able to follow a diet without having to resort to medication? It might have more applications. it might happen.

All power to you Mike
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I don't think we're being negative..just offering up our thoughts ;)

be his way of working through his problem and solutions to that.
From what I gather, mikey doesn't have a problem. Well...he may have, but then he's spending a fair amount of money with LL to get it sorted :clap:

But...he's looking to the future assuming he will have a problem. Not if, but when.

Maintaining isn't about extreme dieting. It's about learning to moderate food, not just on an average day, but all the time...Christmas, holidays, going out with friends. And until you learn that, you cope by just cutting back a little after. It's all part of the process...learning to maintain.

Mikey may well think that he'll never manage that, but as Ali says, it's still early days and there's much to process between now and then.
 
I think you are all being a little negative with Mike.

Ok so he hasn't got to goal or finished counselling or whatever else, but this could, just maybe, be his way of working through his problem and solutions to that.

You seem to forget that he is a bloke - this is what blokes do. They find solutions to problems.

If he does come up with a diet based on food, with good weight loss and do-ability then all power to him - he could write a book!

The other thing this diet could be great for is diabetics.
Imagine just being able to follow a diet without having to resort to medication? It might have more applications. it might happen.

All power to you Mike
x

Actually I wasn't being negative about the idea at all, I was commenting on Mikey's position rather than his diet plan.
I used a VLCD to lose a lot of weight and think they are great, in their place.
I don't think what Mikey is doing is bad at all, if done properly, a VLCD based on food rather than food replacement has it's place too and if I needed it would be glad it was there.
I just don't think it is right for losing a few pounds.
I am sure Mikey will see my point about most of what I said.
 
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