VLCD menu based diet - Page 3 - MiniMins.com

mikey · 19th May, 2008

Thanks Tracey,
What amazes me is that there has not been enough research done into low carb and vlc diets.

It would be much easier f there was more information.

Atkins teaches that to go into ketosis, you need 20 grammes of carbs per day or less (RDA is 300'ish) and that calories do not stop ketosis.

VLCD's have much higher carb content than this. The cranberry raspberry bar I have just eaten contained 20 gms carbs by itself - a whole day's ration on Atkins induction.

So who knows the truth - I wish I did.

It cannot be calorie restriction that caused ketosis as on Atkins you can eat thousands of kcals and remain in ketosis. It must therefore (I guess) be carb restriction that causes this as both diets have this in common. Obviously 20 gms/day is probably less than is required to go into ketosis, but I have no idea what is required. I guess (again) thta this will be different from person to person, but what are the averages?

My aim is to eat healthily, and have a diet (not in the weightloss sense) that I can tailor to suit my lifestyle.

I think ketosis will be an important part of this but only when required (after over-indulging at Christmas for example).

In any case, it seems that there are lots of VLCD's available for £40 - £90 per week and I would have thought that it should be possible to build a VLCD using a proper meal plan. I might look into doing this too for those with a BMI > 30.

Dancing · 19th May, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

Atkins teaches that to go into ketosis, you need 20 grammes of carbs per day or less (RDA is 300'ish) and that calories do not stop ketosis.

No Atkins doesn't say less than 20g of carbs per day ... it does not promote this at all. It is a minimum of 20g per day and you can still be in ketosis on 80g per day ... depending on the individual.

KD · 19th May, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

My LLC has pointed out several times that people without weight problems have a weight that fluctuates naturally, and that they put on weight (for example on holiday) and then lose it by cutting back.

But if they do, then 'normal' people, as opposed to those who eat to appease the scales, do this cutting back naturally. They don't think about it.

Quote:

I don't really see how CBT can stop you putting on a few pounds when you eat out on holiday for 2 weeks - even if you eat carefully!

My husband and 2 sons don't put on weight over a holiday. In fact, my DH can't understand why you would. He thinks exactly the opposite...that you should possibly lose if you haven't got 'weight issues'. My sons feel like that too. I drag them to the restaurants and cafes to fill my need...not theirs. For them, though the food is good, it is a bit of a hassle to stop what you're doing to eat.

I do believe, that I'm beginning to got that way too

Love my food and all that, but it's just a minor part in my life. I eat to live, rather than living to eat.

Assuming you will put on weight on holiday, and will need to get it off, is really a dieting mindset. Very common, and certainly suggests to me that food issues are still prevalent. If that's the case, then in my opinion, the issues need sorting more than anything.

Dieting to me is a bit like a smoker who buys cough mixture for the cough = someone overweight going on a diet. Of course, many people smoke, notice the cough, buy the cough mixture, it gets better, they continue to smoke, cough gets bad again....more mixture.

Then that person decides to have therapy to stop smoking. Cough disappears, but they are going on holiday, and of course, many ex-smokers want a holiday from their quit, whereas a non-smoker will have a fine enough time without the need of a fag.

So do we prepare the cough mixture for the ex-smoker assuming he will smoke on holiday? That's what it sounds like your doing.

Of course..you're not the only one

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Poeple do it all the time in dangerous ways - slimfast, starvation, vinegar and honey, miracle cabbage soup.

I wouldn't say that slimfast was dangerous. Not that I would chose it mind you.

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In my line of work it is sometimes very difficult not to eat and it is often in hotels/restaurants/pubs where you are at the mercy of the chef.

How easy it is will depend on how 'cured' you are.

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so surely a real-food VLCD would be better for the odd week or two than going back onto chemical mixes??

Ah, but I wouldn't advocate going on a VLCD chemical mix or real-food.

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If your body works well when in ketosis, then there should be no issue in transferring straight to your "normal" diet afterwards.

My knowledge of ketosis is limited to the basics. I must admit though that I have never heard of a ketogenic diet that doesn't have a gradual increase in carbs at the end of it. I know that if I cut my carbs, the scales do scare me to death when I introduce them again.

T

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he diet I suggest will be what I would probably be eating normally, but with some of the "bad" stuff left out (carbs).

I love carbs. Consider many to be very healthy.

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This will not be damaging psychologically for me, though I can see that going back on the packs might be for some people that have not understood their relationship with food.

Ah, I see. So basically, you understand that you have an eating problem. You know your relationship with food is still out of balance?

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This is not yo-yo dieting it is just cutting back to keep trim.

Um. But cutting back in the harshest of ways. Eating less that your body needs. I just wonder how necessary this would be.

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If you have evidence of ketosis being dangerous when used for a couple of weeks in people with a BMI of 25 or below, I'd really like to see it please as it would affect my plans. Is there anything like this?

I don't. I assume it wouldn't be dangerous. I do feel though that you could do with working on a little more of the head stuff though

mikey · 19th May, 2008

I have to say that what you surmise from my posts is at odds with what is actually the case - still never mind.

mikey · 19th May, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing

No Atkins doesn't say less than 20g of carbs per day ... it does not promote this at all. It is a minimum of 20g per day and you can still be in ketosis on 80g per day ... depending on the individual.

OK - it is 20 gms max - which means the same - I am talking about induction here - the carbs only rise after induction and then in small stages until ketosis stops and then they are backed off a little from that point.

Dancing · 19th May, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

OK - it is 20 gms max - which means the same - I am talking about induction here - the carbs only rise after induction and then in small stages until ketosis stops and then they are backed off a little from that point.

But it is also 20gm minimum. Which doesn't mean the same. While in induction you must have the 20gm .... the reason being that carbs are the ONLY source of energy for the brain.

KD · 19th May, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

Obviously 20 gms/day is probably less than is required to go into ketosis, but I have no idea what is required. I guess (again) thta this will be different from person to person, but what are the averages?

I believe the average woman goes into ketosis on about 50-60g (albeit only a mild state). Men would be a little higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing

But it is also 20gm minimum. Which doesn't mean the same. While in induction you must have the 20gm .... the reason being that carbs are the ONLY source of energy for the brain.

Agree with that, though I thought that you should aim for 15-20g for induction...and only for 2 weeks.

minilady · 19th May, 2008

I've been at work and have missed lots of this debate this evening, it's been very interesting reading everyone's comments.

I havent got anything really to add just that I have lots of slim friends and famiy members who have never been overweight. I'd never thought about their eating habits in the past as I was too wrapped up in my own eating issues to notice.

Now I do take notice, and have learnt that they just eat a balanced diet, simple as that.

For years I've either cut out fats when that was the trend, then cut out carbs because that was the latest diet and in all that time I yoyo'd from being overweight to obese, never at goal, always depriving myself and making up for it with a binge here and there, never happy. I followed CD and finally got to a weight that I was happy and proud of, but years of yoyoing and cutting out this and that was a hard habit to break, so went into maintenance doing exactly the same thing I had always done.

I now have fat, carbs, sugars you name it

and am finally happy, I'm not depriving myself of any food group and more importantly I'm not putting on any weight.

Mikey I felt exactly the same as you as I approached goal, you've worked really hard to lose your weight and the weightloss is precious and needs to be protected. Unfortunately in most cases yoyo maintaining dosent work. It is so easy to get back into the overeat then starve rut and this does eventually lead to weight gain for the majority.

Lol! I started this post saying I had nothing to add, lordy only knows how long the post would have been if I'd had a point to make

Tracey
x

mikey · 20th May, 2008

Obviously issues that concern us all - I do not see it as yo-yo and certainly would not use it that way.

Regarding carbs and brain food, the brain uses glucose as fuel.When you eat carbs, the body converts the carbs to glucose. This is a relatively easy and quick process expecially if the carbs are already processed to provide the energy easily! The blood sugar produced can easily be too much (especially with processed quick release carb/sugars that we all know are bad for us). High blood sugar levels can lead to severe illness and indeed death, so the body has a method to control blood sugar - insulin. Insulin converts the blood sugar to fat (it does a few other things too).

As in most things there is a ying and a yang - and for insulin, the yang is glucagon.

Glucagon and insulin are antagonistic in action. Glucagon is secreted by alpha cells of the islet of Langerhans and insulin by beta cells. Insulin decreases blood sugar level and glucagon increases blood sugar level. Insulin level increases after feeding on carbs and glucagon level rises in fasting condition.

So insulin takes excess blood sugar and turns it to fat when eating a lot of carbs, and glycagon takes excess fat and converts it to blood sugar in times of no carbs (and in ketosis).

As the brain runs on glucose - blood sugar, you do not need any carbs to keep your brain going as it will function perfectly using the glucose made from your own fat!

The transfer period from insulin / sugar burning metabolism to glycagon / fat burning metabolism is why some people feel sickness and have headaches when going into ketosis.

I hope that helps this discussion move on to the next level (whatever that is) ;-)

mikey · 24th May, 2008

The paln is coming together. It will be a high protein low carb meal plan with limited fats. The carbsd will be low GL - mainly Green leafy veggies, and legumes plus a small amount of slow energy release carbs such as bulgart wheat, couscous, Quinoi and brown rice.

There will be no bread (apart form low GL breads such as rye bread), pasta, potato, white rice, instead there will be plenty of fibrous veggies and low sugar fruits.

Lots of water, the odd tea and coffee and no soft drinks.

A glass of red wine, or dry white wine, or a spirit will be allowed daily on the 1200 kcal plan.

More soon ...

wannabslim · 25th May, 2008

Hiya, interesting to see what you are planning here Mike.

I am following Atkins at the moment, am on Induction (15g carbs up to a max of 20g each day) and find everything you have written about ketosis, carbs etc. very interesting and I agree that my resarch into the subject matches with yours.

Would be good to see whether it works when you try it out and to find out if it gives you any side effects etc. I find Atkins is only do-able due to the lack of restrictions on calories, to eat low carb and low calorie I think for me would be impossible, its one or the other (i.e. low calorie with no carb restrictions except for what can be consumed within the carbs and trying to make healthy choices, or low carb with no calorie restrictions except for eating until you are comfortably full but not stuffed)

Have been watching your thread and think that the arguments/points made on here are all helpful and balanced, both for and against. Now I would just like to see if it works in practice. I am all for theory (I like to theorise with dieting too) but practice is a different story, not least actually being able to stick to the plan itself!

xx

mikey · 25th May, 2008

Thanks for your comments and thoughts wannabslim. I used to think the way that you do regarding Atkins being do-able due to the higher calorie intake. Doing LL has made me re-evaluate the whole idea of ketosis and how the body can be put into it.

As I have said before I am amazed at the lack of research. I just wish there were more. I have had great success with Atkins previously as when ketosis kicks in, the hunger just goes. Ketosis is also the key in a VLCD.

The downside of LL is that it is unnatural - the foods are not 'real' and they do not have enough fats and animal proteins for me (in fact no animal protein). AtKins on the other hand is a more balanced diet (at least in the later stages) and is suitable as a way of life.

My research leads me to Glycaemic Load based diets as being the ultimate way of life once I get to my ideal weight, balancing natural fibrous carbs/veggies/legumes with protein and fat in a nutritionally complete manner.

My experiences show me that there are many myths that are perpetuated by big-business/government.

As one example - The low fat myth - if you eat fat - you will get fat - patently a load of old tosh. It is all based on the fact that in a bomb calorimeter fat can be completely burned and will give off 9 kcals of energy. As protein and carbs are only appros 4 kcals per gramme, it has been easy for us to be convinced that it is a very good idea to replace fat with (cheap) carbs. The fact that our bodies cannot burn fat and release the energy like a bomb calorimeter has been ignored. The fact that when we burn fat as a fuel, a by-product is ketones (approx 4 kcals/gm) that we flush out in breath, sweat and urine has been conveniently ignored. The fact that many oils and fats are used as a laxative (they simply come straight through you) has been conveniently ignored.

I believe controlling blood sugar is the key and that all (non-processed) foods are good (in moderation).

Anyway, I could go on and on, and I am sure that opther people have different ideas and experiences. All I know is that Atkins works for me, and that VLCD's work for me. The VLCD is easier, though weightloss with both is very fast indeed compared to a standard low-fat low cal diet.

19th May, 2008	#31 (permalink)
mikey Likes to post mikey's Profile Albums mikey's Photo Gallery Join Date: 16th January, 2008 Location: Bowers Gifford, Essex Posts: 779 My Mood: Rep Power: 19 Diet: LighterLife	Thanks Tracey, What amazes me is that there has not been enough research done into low carb and vlc diets. It would be much easier f there was more information. Atkins teaches that to go into ketosis, you need 20 grammes of carbs per day or less (RDA is 300'ish) and that calories do not stop ketosis. VLCD's have much higher carb content than this. The cranberry raspberry bar I have just eaten contained 20 gms carbs by itself - a whole day's ration on Atkins induction. So who knows the truth - I wish I did. It cannot be calorie restriction that caused ketosis as on Atkins you can eat thousands of kcals and remain in ketosis. It must therefore (I guess) be carb restriction that causes this as both diets have this in common. Obviously 20 gms/day is probably less than is required to go into ketosis, but I have no idea what is required. I guess (again) thta this will be different from person to person, but what are the averages? My aim is to eat healthily, and have a diet (not in the weightloss sense) that I can tailor to suit my lifestyle. I think ketosis will be an important part of this but only when required (after over-indulging at Christmas for example). In any case, it seems that there are lots of VLCD's available for £40 - £90 per week and I would have thought that it should be possible to build a VLCD using a proper meal plan. I might look into doing this too for those with a BMI > 30. __________________ Mike LL started Jan 10th 2008 Please contribute to my "create a VLCD menu" thread My Weight Chart: >

19th May, 2008	#34 (permalink)
mikey Likes to post mikey's Profile Albums mikey's Photo Gallery Join Date: 16th January, 2008 Location: Bowers Gifford, Essex Posts: 779 My Mood: Rep Power: 19 Diet: LighterLife	I have to say that what you surmise from my posts is at odds with what is actually the case - still never mind. __________________ Mike LL started Jan 10th 2008 Please contribute to my "create a VLCD menu" thread My Weight Chart: >

19th May, 2008	#38 (permalink)
minilady CDC minilady's Profile Albums minilady's Photo Gallery Bola Champion! Coffee Breaker Matchup Champion! Animal Connect Champion! Tournaments Won: 8 Join Date: 12th February, 2007 Location: Kent Posts: 1,869 My Mood: Rep Power: 50 Diet: cambridge diet	I've been at work and have missed lots of this debate this evening, it's been very interesting reading everyone's comments. I havent got anything really to add just that I have lots of slim friends and famiy members who have never been overweight. I'd never thought about their eating habits in the past as I was too wrapped up in my own eating issues to notice. Now I do take notice, and have learnt that they just eat a balanced diet, simple as that. For years I've either cut out fats when that was the trend, then cut out carbs because that was the latest diet and in all that time I yoyo'd from being overweight to obese, never at goal, always depriving myself and making up for it with a binge here and there, never happy. I followed CD and finally got to a weight that I was happy and proud of, but years of yoyoing and cutting out this and that was a hard habit to break, so went into maintenance doing exactly the same thing I had always done. I now have fat, carbs, sugars you name it and am finally happy, I'm not depriving myself of any food group and more importantly I'm not putting on any weight. Mikey I felt exactly the same as you as I approached goal, you've worked really hard to lose your weight and the weightloss is precious and needs to be protected. Unfortunately in most cases yoyo maintaining dosent work. It is so easy to get back into the overeat then starve rut and this does eventually lead to weight gain for the majority. Lol! I started this post saying I had nothing to add, lordy only knows how long the post would have been if I'd had a point to make Tracey x __________________ Lost 4 stone thanks to CD 18 months at goal (Cambridge Diet Counsellor)

20th May, 2008	#39 (permalink)
mikey Likes to post mikey's Profile Albums mikey's Photo Gallery Join Date: 16th January, 2008 Location: Bowers Gifford, Essex Posts: 779 My Mood: Rep Power: 19 Diet: LighterLife	Obviously issues that concern us all - I do not see it as yo-yo and certainly would not use it that way. Regarding carbs and brain food, the brain uses glucose as fuel.When you eat carbs, the body converts the carbs to glucose. This is a relatively easy and quick process expecially if the carbs are already processed to provide the energy easily! The blood sugar produced can easily be too much (especially with processed quick release carb/sugars that we all know are bad for us). High blood sugar levels can lead to severe illness and indeed death, so the body has a method to control blood sugar - insulin. Insulin converts the blood sugar to fat (it does a few other things too). As in most things there is a ying and a yang - and for insulin, the yang is glucagon. Glucagon and insulin are antagonistic in action. Glucagon is secreted by alpha cells of the islet of Langerhans and insulin by beta cells. Insulin decreases blood sugar level and glucagon increases blood sugar level. Insulin level increases after feeding on carbs and glucagon level rises in fasting condition. So insulin takes excess blood sugar and turns it to fat when eating a lot of carbs, and glycagon takes excess fat and converts it to blood sugar in times of no carbs (and in ketosis). As the brain runs on glucose - blood sugar, you do not need any carbs to keep your brain going as it will function perfectly using the glucose made from your own fat! The transfer period from insulin / sugar burning metabolism to glycagon / fat burning metabolism is why some people feel sickness and have headaches when going into ketosis. I hope that helps this discussion move on to the next level (whatever that is) ;-) __________________ Mike LL started Jan 10th 2008 Please contribute to my "create a VLCD menu" thread My Weight Chart: >

24th May, 2008	#40 (permalink)
mikey Likes to post mikey's Profile Albums mikey's Photo Gallery Join Date: 16th January, 2008 Location: Bowers Gifford, Essex Posts: 779 My Mood: Rep Power: 19 Diet: LighterLife	The paln is coming together. It will be a high protein low carb meal plan with limited fats. The carbsd will be low GL - mainly Green leafy veggies, and legumes plus a small amount of slow energy release carbs such as bulgart wheat, couscous, Quinoi and brown rice. There will be no bread (apart form low GL breads such as rye bread), pasta, potato, white rice, instead there will be plenty of fibrous veggies and low sugar fruits. Lots of water, the odd tea and coffee and no soft drinks. A glass of red wine, or dry white wine, or a spirit will be allowed daily on the 1200 kcal plan. More soon ... __________________ Mike LL started Jan 10th 2008 Please contribute to my "create a VLCD menu" thread My Weight Chart: >

25th May, 2008	#41 (permalink)
wannabslim Loves Minimins! wannabslim's Profile Albums wannabslim's Photo Gallery Americas Army Champion! Baby Boom Champion! Batman 3: The Cobblebot Caper Champion! Christmas Shooting Gallery Champion! Classic Frogger Champion! Free Cell Champion! Mad Pac Champion! Shape Match Champion! Capt Zambo Champion! 10-Count: Recounted Champion! Rambo Sheep Champion! Tournaments Won: 7 Join Date: 18th February, 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 3,151 My Mood: Rep Power: 80 Diet: Cambridge Diet Start Date: November 1st, 2006 Start Weight: 215lb Current Weight: 174lb Goal Weight: 140lb Goal Date: February 2009 Statistics: Total Weight Loss: 41lb Weight to Lose: 34lb % Lost 19.07%	Hiya, interesting to see what you are planning here Mike. I am following Atkins at the moment, am on Induction (15g carbs up to a max of 20g each day) and find everything you have written about ketosis, carbs etc. very interesting and I agree that my resarch into the subject matches with yours. Would be good to see whether it works when you try it out and to find out if it gives you any side effects etc. I find Atkins is only do-able due to the lack of restrictions on calories, to eat low carb and low calorie I think for me would be impossible, its one or the other (i.e. low calorie with no carb restrictions except for what can be consumed within the carbs and trying to make healthy choices, or low carb with no calorie restrictions except for eating until you are comfortably full but not stuffed) Have been watching your thread and think that the arguments/points made on here are all helpful and balanced, both for and against. Now I would just like to see if it works in practice. I am all for theory (I like to theorise with dieting too) but practice is a different story, not least actually being able to stick to the plan itself! xx __________________ Re-started CD: 1.12.08, (12.6) My progress since Christmas 2006... Wedding Countdown... Goals: Reach 10% goal Get to under 11.7 Get to 11st 1lbs (BMI 25) Be a size 12