10 months for body to "reset it's memory" Fact - or myth?

[KD]

I will do. I know that insulin cannot affect your appetite so I was just wondering what that really means,

Taken from Lyle McDonalds book 'Bromocriptine' as he explains it much better than me...though remember that insulin isn't as important as leptin in the bodyset/appetite etc.

Although I assume that most readers know what insulin is, here’s the brief
rundown just to be safe. Insulin is a hormone released by the pancreas in response
to carbohydrate (and to a much lesser degree protein) intake. While its primary role is
as a storage hormone, putting calories into muscle and fat cells for later use, insulin
appears to send the brain signals about your eating patterns. Injecting insulin directly
into the brains of animals decreases hunger and appetite; the same system may play
a role in humans as well (8). You can’t inject insulin into human brains, of course, but
increasing insulin levels after a meal may be one of several short-term signals telling
your brain that it s time to stop eating.
Since insulin is very responsive to single meals, going up when you eat, and
back down after a few hours, it mainly affects short-term responses to food: when to
eat, when to stop eating, that sort of thing. As well, it’s fairly easy to control, just make
certain food choices and you can manipulate insulin pretty easily: fast digesting
carbohydrates raise insulin quickly but it tends to crash afterwards; slow digesting
carbohydrates raise insulin more slowly and keep levels stable for longer. I won’t
really talk about insulin that much more.

I have also read that at different stages of your life you have different levels of leptin

Yes, and leptin levels can change on a daily? basis. For example, when you go on a diet, your leptin levels can reduce by 50%, even though you would have only lost a little fat.

Also, leptin levels respond differently in men than ladies. The brain reacts quicker to the lowering of leptin levels than it does to raising them, as it's an anti-starvation hormone.

Leptin is very complex. It does more than just regulate body size. For instance, leptins role in the onset of puberty (okay, I got that from Professor Robert Winston talking about it on the TV )

so essentially a decrease in adipose tissue reduces the amount of ghrelin and leptin produced, that's my understanding. Unless ofcourse you have been obese for a good proportion of your life and have developed resistance to leptin. What do you think?

Well, I'm 53 and was overweight for most of it , but I believe that it's not a case of a person being either resistant, or not resistant. There are varying levels of resistance.

Complete leptin resistance is very rare, but often receptors have various level of sensitivity.

If the receptor is very sensitive, just a small amount of the hormone will have a big effect, and vice versa. This was shown with the research on mice (in the beginning anyway). There was the DB mice who were completely resistant, and the FA mice who were only partially resistant. The DB one is overweight from birth, whereas the FA mice became more resistant with age.

What I find really interesting is that much of the 'advice' we receive about dieting, plateaus, healthy eating, low GI, cycling calories, why some people lose weight when they eat more after a plateau...blah, blah, even the advice about reducing weight slowly (eek), is probably to do with insight into leptin, yet the word 'leptin' rarely gets a mention.

[Bijoux]

Thanks KD. I can see why you are so into it. It is quite addictive when you get started. Will deffo be looking more into it.

[KD]

Thanks KD. I can see why you are so into it. It is quite addictive when you get started.

That and a few other things

I know I go on about it but it explained so much about what was going on.

People misunderastand though. I remember someone on another forum telling me she didn't believe the body set thing. That she was overweight because she ate too much.

But I agree!!!

My initial interest wasn't about metabolism, or trying to find out why when I ate too much I put on weight , but instead, why I ate too much in the first place.

I couldn't believe that naturally slim people spent their lives using willpower and self control to stay slim. I couldn't understand why they can love food like me, yet turn down 2nd helpings. I couldn't understand why I appeared greedy with food, yet I'm not a greedy person by nature, or why I can eat things that damage me because I like them, yet like other things but easily resist if they cause me grief.

I wanted to know not only why I ate so much, but why, when I was slim and very happy with my weight, I was still driven to overeat.

And when I found out why, it was such a relief to discover that I might not be able to stop my brain from wanting excess food (well..not for a while anyway), but I could still control what I ate. That I wasn't doomed. I still had the ability to say No and eat healthily. To overide my biological instincts IYKYIM.

Anyway, talked too much on here Will try to step aside.

Question is though, does this thread answer BLs question?

[Mini_Me]

Wow - nice thread.

I started looking into this a few weeks ago, and I bought a couple of books on the subject (all of Lyle McDOnalds' ones and the 'Facts about Food' one that KD mentions above).

I would recommend watching the following videos:
Deconstructing Obesity

which talk about Leptin and the genetic view on obesity...

and the videos here:

HHMI's BioInteractive - Obesity Lecture Series

especially the 'Student Discussion' one...

The above videos are by the scientist who did a lot of the research into (and discovered?) leptin - so its a fairly good source of information...

I still don't have an answer regarding the set-point though - however, I will let you all know when mine has changed - it may be months or years, but I will let you all know ;-)

Huseiyn - I definately recommend Lyle McDonalds books. They are very good, especially for those interested in weight training, since he is into that alot (i think most of his audience are weight trainers)...

Regards,

[Mini_Me]

Yes, but very difficult to gain muscle without eating loads! And even more difficult for us ladies to gain muscle

From what I have read (much less than KD I can safely assume :-) you cannot build muscle on a calorific deficit - i.e. you need to eat more than you need to maintain your current weight. The diet also needs to have the right amount of protein in it to get the most effecient muscle gain... just something to consider for those people considering looking into this... Lyle McDonalds books explain this all very well...

[Mini_Me]

Same principle i believe on LL, you start to reduce the packs until you hit the 1500 cal marker.

Im just thinking if its wise to use the CD program for RTM over LL. Im on a time frame before i go holiday. In theory it should not matter.

LL does this

3 packs one meal, then it becomes 2 packs then it goes to 1 and finally you are off it. Calories are about 1500 too im looking at the book now.

I agree setpoint is a mute point right about now

Hi Huseyin,

My LLC said that some people choose to do a 'condensed' RTM, where it is shorter than 12 weeks... might be worth asking your LLC if you can do the same...

[KD]

Damn. I'm back already. D'oh

From what I have read (much less than KD I can safely assume :-) you cannot build muscle on a calorific deficit - i.e. you need to eat more than you need to maintain your current weight. The diet also needs to have the right amount of protein in it to get the most effecient muscle gain.

Yes, that's what I would normally say but....it's a huge myth around the net about people dieting and thinking they've gained muscle. There again, it's a minor myth that you can't on a calorie deficit. Evidently a beginner can. Something to do with partitioning abilities, but I don't know the details.

For those that weight train regularly, they would need something in the region of 46,000 calories extra to build a pound of muscle. Yum

I'm sure the figure isn't exact though, so won't risk it. Will keep to my approx of 500cals for dinner today, just in case it's wrong

Cheers for the vid link. I haven't seen those

[cah-ching]

really interesting thread guys!

Just the sort of thing I like to get my mind stuck into and what sets (or will set) Minimins apart from the bog-standard.

[snowmum]

I wanted to know not only why I ate so much, but why, when I was slim and very happy with my weight, I was still driven to overeat.

And when I found out why, it was such a relief to discover that I might not be able to stop my brain from wanting excess food (well..not for a while anyway), but I could still control what I ate. That I wasn't doomed. I still had the ability to say No and eat healthily. To overide my biological instincts IYKYIM

KD this is interesting, can you simply explain some of your thinking and practical things you do in regard to this. (Simply because i do seem to have eaten some of my brain whilst on this diet!)

[Blonde Logic]

Thanks everyone for all the great replies and info! I have been so busy I haven't had time to say thank you until just now.

KD< it was not the timing that I was concerned with - its just thats all I ever heard - "10 months". I just wondered if it was even possible to reset our bodys like that.

There is so much great info here, I am really going to have to trawl through this more thoroughly on the weekend. I just wanted to say thank you now.

Everyone,. Thanks!!

XX

[KD]

KD this is interesting, can you simply explain some of your thinking and practical things you do in regard to this. (Simply because i do seem to have eaten some of my brain whilst on this diet!)

LOL. Yeah, reckon my brain was canabolized in the process

Seriously though, once I knew that there was something biological goin on, I could stop beating myself up about it. I could use logic. I worked out what I needed to maintain my weight, and knew that over that was my inner drive to eat more, rather than an actual need. I did find various techniques that worked for me (putting in a pause to get of the habit of compulsive eating etc).

It explained so much and helped me understand that my excuses to eat too much were probably biologically driven, rather than being just excuses.

I've just watched the Deconstructing Obesity Lecture, and wow wasn't that interesting. Very well explained, so thanks again for that Mr Mini Me

This has been a fascinating thread. I vote it be stickied in the LL hall of fame threads. Super thanks to KD for sharing all her knowledge.

You're welcome To be honest, it's lovely to get a chance to talk about it. It makes a change from threads where people are labelling themselves weak/greedy/stupid. I only wished it was talked about more, but I've noticed that many people just aren't interested.

I've received quite a lot of resistant about it on a couple of other forums. For no other reason that people don't believe the problem exists. For me, that's like people saying there is no such thing as a calorie, or homones don't exist.

I went past the doubting stage ages ago, but I can understand in a way. After all, though the scientists have proven this, and explained it over and over again (you know...15,000 studies!), it's not talked about in diet forums, or by doctors, nutritionists etc. I'm confused by this. Would there be any other biological problem that professionals would be so willing to sweep under the carpet?

[slendablenda]

LOGIC................. xxx

[KD]

LOGIC................. xxx

Ummmm...yeah

BTW, I've just read another message from a member that's really relevant here. It shows the lack of understanding by the public in general about these matters.

Just asked if I can quote her. Will be back when she replies

[KD]

Here goes

In a couple of other threads on the board, people have been talking about how thin people often make really unkind, unthinking, or just downright rude comments about our weight or dieting efforts. In my remarks on these posts, I've said that I think that most people do do not have weight problems do not and cannot understand what people who struggle with their weight go through.

I think the majority of naturally thin folks simply think that us chronic dieters are fat because we lack willpower or motivation. I think most of them believe if we didn't shovel so much food into our mouths, we wouldn't have a weight problem.

I've been thinking about these threads for the past couple of days, and I've come to realize that I am forever doomed to be a fat person.

Now that doesn't mean that I won't lose weight. I am losing weight now, and if I stick to the diet long enough, I will see my goal weight. However, even if I lose every pound I want to lose, I will still be a fat person on the inside. To everyone else, I'll appear slim, but in order to remain that way I will probably have to struggle for the rest of my life. I will always have to be careful about exercise and limiting what I eat. I will always have a fat person's metabolism, and I will always have a body that wants to lay on fat if I drop my guard even the tiniest bit.

I've heard the ubiquitous "they" say that inside every fat person is a thin person screaming to get out. Unfortunately, I think the real truth is that inside every thin person who used to be fat, is a fat person screaming to come back.

This is what I feel is so unfair. There is such a lack of understanding about the problem. Why isn't more said about it.

Apart from the Horizon programme the other day, I've seen nothing...except about the discovery of Leptin on the news about 12 years ago.

But it effects so many people lives. So sad.

[slendablenda]

Absolutely agree. The addict analogy is so appropriate. I know we cannot abstain from food forever so it's different, but the risk of slipping back and out of control will always be there.
I agree that naturally slim people think people with weight issues are just greedy pigs and all they need is a bit of self-control.
What I do not understand is that the medical profession and society as a whole recognises eating disorders which make people thin, such as anorexia and bulimia, as psychological as well as physiological illnesses, but consider people with obesity issues just as greedy pigs - how come???