Newbie question - the science bit!

[Hooya]

Hello all

Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before, but my research has been inconclusive and I thought you lovely people may be able to shed some light!

If ketosis means we are burning fat for energy, then since on Atkins we tend to eat a lot of fat, doesn't that just mean our bodies will use that fat, instead of the nasty stuff stored on our thighs and tummies?? As per the induction rules I am counting carbs and not cals or fat, which has been great, but I'm a bit worried that my ketones are a result of the buttery lamb chops I just ate, not me burning off my own fat!

Can anyone shed any light? Sorry for the random questions!

 

[PennyJane]

Sorry, this isn't an answer but I just wanted to say that I had thought exactly the same thing... I'll be waiting to see what others say about this. x

Thanks for asking the question!

 

[Jim]

here you go

EAT FAT TO BURN FAT

There is the same info on the Atkins site, but this is more condensed.

 

[Hooya]

Thanks Jim!

Those sites are great in terms of the evidence for higher fat and lower carbs being a better way to diet - but they don't address the question of how a body in ketosis uses stored fat versus consumed fat

I am very confused! Of course if it keeps working for me I won't complain

Any light anyone can shed would be helpful!

And PennyJane - thanks, I don't feel so silly now for asking

 

[Jim]

Oh i see sorry, I misread your question, your body will burn stored fat as it process the food you eat and then stores that, it's the way the body works.

 

[PennyJane]

So in effect the body is still storing... what percentage is stored as fat? I suppose that depends on the ratio of fat consumption to energy usage?

I'm confused as to why the Cambridge Diet and Atkins aren't more similar... they both allow you into a ketotic state but one allows you to consume any amount of meat, while the other restricts almost everything.

 

[imlosingit]

Penny although they are both ketogenic diets, they are very different. CD is a VLCD which restricts calories to such an extent that weightloss is rapid but restricting carbs is necessary to induce ketosis which is a natural appetite suppresent (sp) otherwise you would be very hungry on it. Atkins again is a ketogenic diet but the weight loss is slower as its not based on calories but more putting your body into a state that burns its own fat over a longer period of time. x

 

[KD]

Penny although they are both ketogenic diets, they are very different. CD is a VLCD which restricts calories to such an extent that weightloss is rapid but restricting carbs is necessary to induce ketosis which is a natural appetite suppresent (sp) otherwise you would be very hungry on it. Atkins again is a ketogenic diet but the weight loss is slower as its not based on calories but more putting your body into a state that burns its own fat over a longer period of time. x

Yep, that's right. We lose excess fat by reducing calories. CD SS has restricted calories, so you lose weight fast (but obviously with SS, you don't get to eat )

Atkins calories vary, so weight loss varies, but ketosis will help satiety, so help reduce calories.

It really is to do with calories though. After all, the main non ketogenic diets (aka WW, SW) also burn fat.

When Atkins brought out his diet saying that there was a fat burn advantage, it wasn't quite true (well...they've found out since), but there has been research recently that suggests ketogenic diets do have slight advantage when it comes to preserving lean mass.

As for Eating fat to lose fat. Well...some say yay, some say nay. I think most people would say it nay, because in terms of calories, the body processes them the same way. And it's calories in vs calories out at the end of the day.

I do think ketogenic diets in general are brill, really from the satiety benefit and the reduction in cravings

 

[Miss Macaw]

I do think ketogenic diets in general are brill, really from the satiety benefit and the reduction in cravings

Absolutely - hear hear! I've dieted three times in my life, once calorie counting, once low-fat and once low-carb. The first two did the job at the time but were really hard work. Low carb was a piece of, er, cake in comparison and I'm the lightest I've been in my adult life.

Off topic, but did anyone see the news item recently about using ketogenic diets to treat severe epilepsy in children? Really interesting.

 

[KD]

Off topic, but did anyone see the news item recently about using ketogenic diets to treat severe epilepsy in children? Really interesting.

Not sure what the news item was referring to as they've been used for that purpose for a long time. Perhaps it was gaining popularity again?

There's a film that sometimes comes on the True Movie channel about some child with epilepsy who did a keto diet. Good film and some of the actors were people who had used this way to control their epilepsy.

BTW, I belong to a forum for families whose children have epilepsy and are on keto diets, so I know it's been going a while

 

[Miss Macaw]

It was this:

BBC NEWS | England | Devon | High-fat diet aids epileptic girl

It was also in Metro and the journo had clearly got the wrong end of the stick and said the little girl in question could eat ice cream all day. They even captioned the picture of her 'sweet tooth'. No!!!

I'd never heard of it before KD, but then I don't know anyone with severe epilepsy, nor am I a medical person. But I think it's amazing!

 

[KD]

It was this:

BBC NEWS | England | Devon | High-fat diet aids epileptic girl

Umm. Interesting. Come to think of it, I don't hear of many Brits using the diet for epilepsy. Perhaps it's more common in the States.

BTW, just checked and it's been used for epilepsy since the early 1920s

It was also in Metro and the journo had clearly got the wrong end of the stick and said the little girl in question could eat ice cream all day. They even captioned the picture of her 'sweet tooth'. No!!!

That doesn't sound right, though I know the keto diet is a little different with epileptics as I think they have to be a little more dehydrated and some other stuff. I must do a search of my notes

Will be back if I find more, because it's fascinating isn't it.

 

[KD]

Aha. Found. Not only a mention of the keto diet for epilepsy, but on the same paragraph a note on fat in a keto diet.

From dear old Lyle again. Author of the ketogenic diet for the practitioner.

Although a high fat intake is necessary for epileptic children, this is because they must maintain deep ketosis and weight loss is not desirable for developing children in most cases.

However, for epileptic children who are also obese, the ketogenic diet is used both as a treatment for the epilepsy as well as to cause weight loss (12).

All of this data suggests that dietary fat is not a necessary part of a ketogenic diet from a metabolic or adaptational standpoint as ketosis will readily develop without the consumption of dietary fat (assuming protein and carbohydrate intake are not too high). From a strictly metabolic standpoint, there appears to be no difference in a ketogenic diet which contains fat and one which does not contain fat.
The primary reason for the inclusion of dietary fat in the ketogenic diet is to keep caloric intake high enough to prevent a slowdown of metabolic rate. Recall from chapter 8 that a caloric deficit below 12 calories per pound of bodyweight can result in the loss of muscle and metabolic slowdown, both of which dieters want to avoid.

Since protein and carbohydrate intake must be kept relatively constant on a ketogenic diet, the only way to modulate caloric intake is by changing the amount of dietary fat consumed. From a practical standpoint, the inclusion of dietary fat tends to promote feelings of fullness as well as making food taste better, both important aspects of making a diet work for most people. Those who have tried an all-protein diet can attest to the monotony of consuming only lean protein at each meal for long periods of time.

 

[Miss Macaw]

Wow - that's really interesting. It answers so many questions about why low carb needs to be highish fat. I couldn't get my head round that to start with, but the whole slowing of metabolic rate thing makes perfect sense now.

By the way KD, as I get more confident about posting stuff here, just thought I should say I've read many of your posts and replies to people's questions and, sincerely, I think you are an inspiration.

Right, off to cook my lovely chunk of monkfish. In butter.

 

[KD]

Wow - that's really interesting. It answers so many questions about why low carb needs to be highish fat.

Yes, because there's just the 3 macro nutrients (or 4 if you count alcohol), so reduce one (carbs) and you will increase another. Some keto diets have guidelines for huge fat consumption. Barry Groves diet reckons on something like 80% fat! Others tend to be more moderate.

By the way KD, as I get more confident about posting stuff here, just thought I should say I've read many of your posts and replies to people's questions and, sincerely, I think you are an inspiration.

aw, many thanks :thankyou: There are some great inspirations here (look at Jim for a start!)

Must admit though, that I'm a glutton for info about diets in general. How they work, physiologically and the whole mindset thing. Find it all really interesting. Reckon that I've swapped dieting for myself to watching and learning about other people's diets

 

[Hooya]

Thanks everyone for your helpful input - I understand a lot better now! So basically ketosis reduces my cravings (which it has, though they haven't vanished sadly!) and may provide some metabolic advantage over a low-fat diet, but if I enjoy too much salami and don't haul my lazy ass to the gym, I may not lose weight!

I lost a stone last year by calorie counting and banning bread, potatoes, rice and pasta, which was successful but a bit tedious with the weighing and counting! But if I find myself eating too much on Atkins, I might have to get the calorie book and notepad out again

Monkfish in butter.... YUM

 

[Jim]

Monkfish in butter.... YUM

Now that's very Atkins friendly.

 

[Miss Macaw]

Monkfish was delicious. I'm maintaining now but am having a few hardcore low carb days after falling prey to a couple of chocolate eclairs...

 

[Jim]

Chocolate Éclairs!

 

[Miss Macaw]

Chocolate Éclairs!

Oh, I know!! My mum got them (she ALWAYS buys food when I go and visit, won't take no for an answer) and I succumbed. They weren't even that nice.