Substituting shakes
- Thread starter fattytothinny2007
- Start date
fattytothinny2007
Full Member
hmm ok wasnt a new thread but there we go lol,
whenever this is mentioned, the vitamins comes into the equation, but noone died previously on their bad diet (bad due to weight gain one assumes) so it isnt life and death to not have 100% vits in everything and a decent supplement can give this, else how would the shakes be able to
also, potassium is one of the key ones, so this should definitely be looked into if modifying
there seems to be a lot of marketing when it comes to challenging the vlcd shakes, the weight loss is due to the low cal, protein to stop muscle loss very important but can be gained using other items aka atkins and the like, and ketosis, yes it helps appetite for some but it isnt needed for weight loss
so really, how is it dangerous to talk about modifying? it isnt, no more so than atkins or any other low carb low cal way of dieting
ketosis is, as someone has pointed out, possible with higher carb levels than the shakes give
whenever this is mentioned, the vitamins comes into the equation, but noone died previously on their bad diet (bad due to weight gain one assumes) so it isnt life and death to not have 100% vits in everything and a decent supplement can give this, else how would the shakes be able to
also, potassium is one of the key ones, so this should definitely be looked into if modifying
there seems to be a lot of marketing when it comes to challenging the vlcd shakes, the weight loss is due to the low cal, protein to stop muscle loss very important but can be gained using other items aka atkins and the like, and ketosis, yes it helps appetite for some but it isnt needed for weight loss
so really, how is it dangerous to talk about modifying? it isnt, no more so than atkins or any other low carb low cal way of dieting
ketosis is, as someone has pointed out, possible with higher carb levels than the shakes give
ilovebiochem
Full Member
Any diet with less than ~100g carbs per day will induce ketosis to some extent, although a lot of ketogenic diets set the upper limit to 30g to ensure that ketosis is achieved.
Starlight
Gold Member
Its been a new thread for some time actually
Clearly youve made up your own mind about this. Good luck with whatever you decide
Personally my health is too important to risk it for the sake of a few £s a week. If Asda was suitable as a VLCD theyd be selling and marketing it as such, and upping the price.
I hope you dont have too many ill effects doing your own version of a VLCD.
Clearly youve made up your own mind about this. Good luck with whatever you decide
Personally my health is too important to risk it for the sake of a few £s a week. If Asda was suitable as a VLCD theyd be selling and marketing it as such, and upping the price.
I hope you dont have too many ill effects doing your own version of a VLCD.
ilovebiochem
Full Member
You really don't want to be messing around with potassium if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not even sure it's available as a solo supplement.
I would even argue that some marketed VLCDs don't provide enough protein. I've only looked at Cambridge and Exante, but they were working at the minimum requirements level. Protein needs go up when on such low calories, so I don't believe they provide sufficient levels.
Very dangerous if you screw up your electrolytes (which is very easy to do).
fattytothinny2007
Full Member
yes but any diet is dangerous if self devised, there will always be something missing there,
however we got in this shape because our health was not a priority and because we were not eating well there also
im sorry some find it a hostile idea but all ideas should be welcomed, just as yours was starlight when first talking about changing the bars over
however we got in this shape because our health was not a priority and because we were not eating well there also
im sorry some find it a hostile idea but all ideas should be welcomed, just as yours was starlight when first talking about changing the bars over
Starlight
Gold Member
Yes but the nutrients were virtually identical and this was even confirmed by Exante at that time that they were a suitable replacement for their bars. So slightly different
I cant actually decide if your being geniune with these posts any more or if we're merely encouraging a troll.
I dont understand why people cant just do diets the way theyre devised. Why do peolpe think they know so much better than the diet companies who have invested millions in these diets
If you want to do MEasure up - do it the way its designed.
If you want a TFR - do one of them.
Its like all diets, people on WW think they know better 'I dont need all my points'
People on SW 'I wont have any Syns'
People on VLCDs 'Im not hungry Im only having a pack a day'
Then they all wonder why they dont lose weight and their diets stop working
I cant actually decide if your being geniune with these posts any more or if we're merely encouraging a troll.
I dont understand why people cant just do diets the way theyre devised. Why do peolpe think they know so much better than the diet companies who have invested millions in these diets
If you want to do MEasure up - do it the way its designed.
If you want a TFR - do one of them.
Its like all diets, people on WW think they know better 'I dont need all my points'
People on SW 'I wont have any Syns'
People on VLCDs 'Im not hungry Im only having a pack a day'
Then they all wonder why they dont lose weight and their diets stop working
fattytothinny2007
Full Member
how am i a troll because of looking at alternatives? how silly to suggest and rather disappointing starlight, ive always looked at your diary and thought you were doing well most of the time, but as soon as something is challenged you dont agree with, these kind of replies come
frankly i would expect better there, so let that be that
on topic, people were losing weight long before these shake diets were invented, and they do indeed have their place, but if the same effect can be achieved for less money, that is not dangerous to look into, and i would think, very desirable for those on a budget who need to lose weight and find it hard to meet the costs of these plans
lets not forget, before exante, people positively threw up at the thought of getting the vlcd shakes without a doctor, now mail order companies such as exante and w8 are thought of as the norm
it is the process of ketosis and low cal that we need, how we get it can be multichangeable
frankly i would expect better there, so let that be that
on topic, people were losing weight long before these shake diets were invented, and they do indeed have their place, but if the same effect can be achieved for less money, that is not dangerous to look into, and i would think, very desirable for those on a budget who need to lose weight and find it hard to meet the costs of these plans
lets not forget, before exante, people positively threw up at the thought of getting the vlcd shakes without a doctor, now mail order companies such as exante and w8 are thought of as the norm
it is the process of ketosis and low cal that we need, how we get it can be multichangeable
ilovebiochem
Full Member
I see your point but even when eating unhealthily your electrolytes are likely to be in balance. Your vitamins and minerals may be a bit off, and your EFA (essential fatty acid) balance will be messed up, but your electrolytes won't be.
Messed up electrolytes levels (whether they've been flushed out or your potassium is at toxic levels, etc.) can and do cause death.
Messed up electrolytes levels (whether they've been flushed out or your potassium is at toxic levels, etc.) can and do cause death.
fattytothinny2007
Full Member
what does psmf stand for?
ilovebiochem
Full Member
OP if you're determined to do this your own way I would highly suggest getting a copy of Lyle McDonald's 'Rapid Fat Loss Handbook'. At least then you'll know how to supplement and in what quantities. He's a legit guy who knows his stuff. You can get the book from his website (hardcopy and/or eBook) - Lyle McDonald - Bodyrecomposition
PSMF = protein sparing modified fast. It's outlined in the book I mention above.
PSMF = protein sparing modified fast. It's outlined in the book I mention above.
Starlight
Gold Member
Its nothing to do with a challenge, it seems odd an account lies dormant for 3 years and the first posts back are so argumentative. Its not the first time its happened, and these posts are very far removed from your former style of posting.
Im not at all adverse to a bit of a tweak, Im the first to admit to putting milk in coffee and drinking coke zero but I know they have NO impact on my diet, the worst theyre going to do is kick me out of ketosis.
Clearly we're going round in circles here. And were clearly never going to agree. Exante is hardly expensive at £25 a week and its safe.
Good luck with whatever diet YOU decide to do and whatever way you choose to do it. But clearly Minimins is not going to be seen to promote diets being done in a way they shouldnt and potentially at a risk to their members. I hope you dont suffer for the sake of an experiment or saving cash
Im not at all adverse to a bit of a tweak, Im the first to admit to putting milk in coffee and drinking coke zero but I know they have NO impact on my diet, the worst theyre going to do is kick me out of ketosis.
Clearly we're going round in circles here. And were clearly never going to agree. Exante is hardly expensive at £25 a week and its safe.
Good luck with whatever diet YOU decide to do and whatever way you choose to do it. But clearly Minimins is not going to be seen to promote diets being done in a way they shouldnt and potentially at a risk to their members. I hope you dont suffer for the sake of an experiment or saving cash
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fattytothinny2007
Full Member
thanks ilovebiochem, im actually not decided as of yet
i currently am on the shakes alone and am fine on them but when u look at what some people do without impact, ie having a cup of tea with milk- no effect, different bars - no effect, piece of chicken or cheese they should not have - no effect, it dawned on me that it isnt unreasonable to sub another of the meals with something cheaper, that has the same kind of carb/fat/protein/cal ration and still get the required effect
and might it be a marketing ploy that these companies do in order to charge the obscene prices, for example a box of mixed products is so much cheaper than 50 of the same flavour, same product in each but the combo means such a hike in price, that is a bit hmmmm
obviously its to try not to be left with the unpopular flavours, but do 50 chocolate really mean such a bigger expense is rational than a weeks mixed shakes supply
in the same way as these plans allow for losses with an additional food, 810 etc, where u have some high protein dense food
the main contention is the vitamin/electrolyte issue and this is, as you say, extremely important when it comes to the electrolyte balance, which is what would need further looking into
i currently am on the shakes alone and am fine on them but when u look at what some people do without impact, ie having a cup of tea with milk- no effect, different bars - no effect, piece of chicken or cheese they should not have - no effect, it dawned on me that it isnt unreasonable to sub another of the meals with something cheaper, that has the same kind of carb/fat/protein/cal ration and still get the required effect
and might it be a marketing ploy that these companies do in order to charge the obscene prices, for example a box of mixed products is so much cheaper than 50 of the same flavour, same product in each but the combo means such a hike in price, that is a bit hmmmm
obviously its to try not to be left with the unpopular flavours, but do 50 chocolate really mean such a bigger expense is rational than a weeks mixed shakes supply
in the same way as these plans allow for losses with an additional food, 810 etc, where u have some high protein dense food
the main contention is the vitamin/electrolyte issue and this is, as you say, extremely important when it comes to the electrolyte balance, which is what would need further looking into
Size 16 Will Do
Silver Member
The Protein Sparing Modified Fast - just googled it !
PSMF Diet Program
feel free to read it and tell me what it is i darent lok at it cos I will probably try it!!! Story of my life ha ha ha x x
PSMF Diet Program
feel free to read it and tell me what it is i darent lok at it cos I will probably try it!!! Story of my life ha ha ha x x
ilovebiochem
Full Member
I'm doing a PSMF. It's just adequate protein, vitamins, minerals, EFAs, electrolytes and water. No carbs or fats (except for the EFAs). Very low calorie (I'm consuming about 500kcal/day).
It's what the Dukan Diet is based on, and the book I mentioned above (the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook). The Cleveland Clinic is just a provider of a monitored PSMF.
It's what the Dukan Diet is based on, and the book I mentioned above (the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook). The Cleveland Clinic is just a provider of a monitored PSMF.
Divster
Gold Member
You know what, while looking at the measure up bars in Asda, it did cross my mind about there tubs of shake mixes! £4 a tub! Really would Asda charge much more for it if was ment to be used as a tfr, probably not.
There is nothing about measure up anywhere, even the packets dont say how its ment to be used. The bars say its a meal replacement plan, thats all. So could it be used with a good multi-vit hmm?
Maybe if a I was broke one month, I would use it for a few weeks!
Serious question though, if you back it up with a good multi-vit, surely everything is covered? You can have upto 120g of carbs a day and still get into ketosis, and exante isnt a ketogenic diet, neither is CD.
There is nothing about measure up anywhere, even the packets dont say how its ment to be used. The bars say its a meal replacement plan, thats all. So could it be used with a good multi-vit hmm?
Maybe if a I was broke one month, I would use it for a few weeks!
Serious question though, if you back it up with a good multi-vit, surely everything is covered? You can have upto 120g of carbs a day and still get into ketosis, and exante isnt a ketogenic diet, neither is CD.
listen girls and guys .... I dont want to scare you but about 6 weeks ago I was at deaths door. not because I was doing VLCD, I was very ill for other reasons. I had ran out of magnesium & potassium as part of my illness and it wasnt pretty. I received magnesium in IV and they flooded my body with potassium drinks .... the drinks were nasty nasty nasty I cant even tell you how bad. When i went to the bathroom after and for several days all my pooh was a bluey-green colour (TMI) and it was close calls each time I needed to go.
I will make it clear this was not caused by weight loss methods but this is what it would look like if you didnt get your electrolytes.
I will make it clear this was not caused by weight loss methods but this is what it would look like if you didnt get your electrolytes.
scotminx
Gold Member
Oh dear bobbi, that sounds well scary - glad to hear you're on the mend. I'm slightly confused though - how would you generally keep your electrolytes in check if you weren't doing a VLCD, or indeed if you did substitute? I'm not going to mess about with my own programme, just wondering... Surely substituting a shake here or there for a low carb/high protein meal wouldn't be a disaster?
fattytothinny2007
Full Member
i dont think the science behind the different methods are that much different, it is easy to go on a plan such as exante or cambridge and get into a mindset that anything else wont bring the weight off if they are not on that plan
but technically, but for the electrolyte issue and vits, the science is the same for any method of low carb/cal/protein
electrolyte imbalances are dangerous, but i do think saying any other method of a ketogenic diet that isnt these shake companies is dangerous on this level, is not altogether true
also, electrolytes can be affected by other things also, drinking too much for example in the old days of the more u drink the more u shrink which was positively touted around the shake forums as gospel at one point
our former junk food diets were not good for us, but didnt stop many of us eating like that for a good number of yrs, weight loss can happen without a branded product, tho again i do think they have their place
my thoughts are i clearly have the willpower to have only 3 packs, therefore i can do anything
i often wonder if nutritionally balanced is merely the get out for these companies saying 'this is why we charge so much'
but technically, but for the electrolyte issue and vits, the science is the same for any method of low carb/cal/protein
electrolyte imbalances are dangerous, but i do think saying any other method of a ketogenic diet that isnt these shake companies is dangerous on this level, is not altogether true
also, electrolytes can be affected by other things also, drinking too much for example in the old days of the more u drink the more u shrink which was positively touted around the shake forums as gospel at one point
our former junk food diets were not good for us, but didnt stop many of us eating like that for a good number of yrs, weight loss can happen without a branded product, tho again i do think they have their place
my thoughts are i clearly have the willpower to have only 3 packs, therefore i can do anything
i often wonder if nutritionally balanced is merely the get out for these companies saying 'this is why we charge so much'
I now take potassium & magnesium suppliments to be on the safe side and have the all clear to do VLCD.
Usually eating normal food you get sufficient mag & pot, things like vegtables are abundant in these. In my case I had an infection and used up all my supplies fighting an incorrectly treated illness - healthy people when they get sick replenish the mag & pot very very quickly so they dont need to be concerned about lacking in a normal diet. But you know this is the reason that the governemnt and other people keep banging on about eating veg and good food.
In order to keep your supplies in top condition eat the correct offds (or proper VLCD) and if you miss a pack (which you shouldnt be doing ) you really should be making it up by eating a full meal consisting off protein and vegtables. Also if you get sick then it is extra important not to miss meals or substitute shakes more than absolutely neccessary.
there are no ifs and buts about it you need to stick to the plan, if you go make up your own plan then you are dicing with your health. There is a reason why you have to pay extra money for VLCDs, they have a lot of reasearch put into them and the additional support if you need help.
Usually eating normal food you get sufficient mag & pot, things like vegtables are abundant in these. In my case I had an infection and used up all my supplies fighting an incorrectly treated illness - healthy people when they get sick replenish the mag & pot very very quickly so they dont need to be concerned about lacking in a normal diet. But you know this is the reason that the governemnt and other people keep banging on about eating veg and good food.
In order to keep your supplies in top condition eat the correct offds (or proper VLCD) and if you miss a pack (which you shouldnt be doing ) you really should be making it up by eating a full meal consisting off protein and vegtables. Also if you get sick then it is extra important not to miss meals or substitute shakes more than absolutely neccessary.
there are no ifs and buts about it you need to stick to the plan, if you go make up your own plan then you are dicing with your health. There is a reason why you have to pay extra money for VLCDs, they have a lot of reasearch put into them and the additional support if you need help.
