10 months for body to "reset it's memory" Fact - or myth?

[KD]

KD this is interesting, can you simply explain some of your thinking and practical things you do in regard to this. (Simply because i do seem to have eaten some of my brain whilst on this diet!)

LOL. Yeah, reckon my brain was canabolized in the process

Seriously though, once I knew that there was something biological goin on, I could stop beating myself up about it. I could use logic. I worked out what I needed to maintain my weight, and knew that over that was my inner drive to eat more, rather than an actual need. I did find various techniques that worked for me (putting in a pause to get of the habit of compulsive eating etc).

It explained so much and helped me understand that my excuses to eat too much were probably biologically driven, rather than being just excuses.

I've just watched the Deconstructing Obesity Lecture, and wow wasn't that interesting. Very well explained, so thanks again for that Mr Mini Me

This has been a fascinating thread. I vote it be stickied in the LL hall of fame threads. Super thanks to KD for sharing all her knowledge.

You're welcome To be honest, it's lovely to get a chance to talk about it. It makes a change from threads where people are labelling themselves weak/greedy/stupid. I only wished it was talked about more, but I've noticed that many people just aren't interested.

I've received quite a lot of resistant about it on a couple of other forums. For no other reason that people don't believe the problem exists. For me, that's like people saying there is no such thing as a calorie, or homones don't exist.

I went past the doubting stage ages ago, but I can understand in a way. After all, though the scientists have proven this, and explained it over and over again (you know...15,000 studies!), it's not talked about in diet forums, or by doctors, nutritionists etc. I'm confused by this. Would there be any other biological problem that professionals would be so willing to sweep under the carpet?

 

[slendablenda]

Blonde

LOGIC................. xxx

 

[KD]

LOGIC................. xxx

Ummmm...yeah

BTW, I've just read another message from a member that's really relevant here. It shows the lack of understanding by the public in general about these matters.

Just asked if I can quote her. Will be back when she replies

 

[KD]

Here goes

In a couple of other threads on the board, people have been talking about how thin people often make really unkind, unthinking, or just downright rude comments about our weight or dieting efforts. In my remarks on these posts, I've said that I think that most people do do not have weight problems do not and cannot understand what people who struggle with their weight go through.

I think the majority of naturally thin folks simply think that us chronic dieters are fat because we lack willpower or motivation. I think most of them believe if we didn't shovel so much food into our mouths, we wouldn't have a weight problem.

I've been thinking about these threads for the past couple of days, and I've come to realize that I am forever doomed to be a fat person.

Now that doesn't mean that I won't lose weight. I am losing weight now, and if I stick to the diet long enough, I will see my goal weight. However, even if I lose every pound I want to lose, I will still be a fat person on the inside. To everyone else, I'll appear slim, but in order to remain that way I will probably have to struggle for the rest of my life. I will always have to be careful about exercise and limiting what I eat. I will always have a fat person's metabolism, and I will always have a body that wants to lay on fat if I drop my guard even the tiniest bit.

I've heard the ubiquitous "they" say that inside every fat person is a thin person screaming to get out. Unfortunately, I think the real truth is that inside every thin person who used to be fat, is a fat person screaming to come back.

This is what I feel is so unfair. There is such a lack of understanding about the problem. Why isn't more said about it.

Apart from the Horizon programme the other day, I've seen nothing...except about the discovery of Leptin on the news about 12 years ago.

But it effects so many people lives. So sad.

 

[slendablenda]

Hear Hear

Absolutely agree. The addict analogy is so appropriate. I know we cannot abstain from food forever so it's different, but the risk of slipping back and out of control will always be there.
I agree that naturally slim people think people with weight issues are just greedy pigs and all they need is a bit of self-control.
What I do not understand is that the medical profession and society as a whole recognises eating disorders which make people thin, such as anorexia and bulimia, as psychological as well as physiological illnesses, but consider people with obesity issues just as greedy pigs - how come???

 

[KD]

What I do not understand is that the medical profession and society as a whole recognises eating disorders which make people thin, such as anorexia and bulimia, as psychological as well as physiological illnesses, but consider people with obesity issues just as greedy pigs - how come???

This is what mysifies me. Well...to an extent. I know why society doesn't consider it. Because they don't know! Not enough education.

I've been to dozens of slimming clubs and they've never mentioned it (okay..most were before the discovery of leptin...but that's not the point )

I saw a dietician since who told me that all my problems were because I had my lunch in the car. Yeah...Hey ho. Stop eating lunch between jobs (which was only a banana anyway as it was a rush) and all my problems would be over, according to her. Overweight people eat in cars evidently, so if you don't eat in the car, you'll be slim :clap:

BUT My doctor did seem aware of something. My decision to do Cambridge was after an excellent conversation with her about weight matters.

She told me that they didn't as yet know enough about obesity, and that more and more was being found out. Then went on to say that I needed to eat the right amount for me. Not for anyone else...but for me.

This was a great lightbulb moment for me. Stupid though it sounds, I'd never looked at it that way. Always compared with other people.

One of my turning points

 

[edibeedee]

KD do you feel you have reached your set point, and if so about when did it happen for you, how long did it take to get to that point. Not sure if you have already answered this and if so, so sorry.

 

[Mini_Me]

I saw a dietician since who told me that all my problems were because I had my lunch in the car. Yeah...Hey ho. Stop eating lunch between jobs (which was only a banana anyway as it was a rush) and all my problems would be over, according to her. Overweight people eat in cars evidently, so if you don't eat in the car, you'll be slim :clap:

BUT My doctor did seem aware of something. My decision to do Cambridge was after an excellent conversation with her about weight matters.

She told me that they didn't as yet know enough about obesity, and that more and more was being found out. Then went on to say that I needed to eat the right amount for me. Not for anyone else...but for me.

This was a great lightbulb moment for me. Stupid though it sounds, I'd never looked at it that way. Always compared with other people.

One of my turning points

My GP was really useless when it came to discussing this - they gave me a phone number and told me to join a gym... They had no idea about what diet programmes were available, or the latest thinking on the matter - or anything... such a shame...
The govt want to 'tackle' obesity - but they aren't doing the right things in my opinion...

I still don't have an answer about the setpoint though

 

[Toots]

I was taught this in the nutrition / diet part of a fitness instructor course I did. They said 9 months but potato potaato (mmmmmmmmmmmm that saying does not translate to the written word, just looks like I can't spell )
xx

 

[KD]

KD do you feel you have reached your set point, and if so about when did it happen for you, how long did it take to get to that point. Not sure if you have already answered this and if so, so sorry.

Reaching my setpoint depends which setpoint we are talking about. I believe I could still easily reach my 19stone setpoint again...sigh

Have I made a new setpoint at a lower weight? Possibly, but not sure. Since I've changed my lifestyle and mindset to what I eat and it's amount, I believe both of those things outweigh any leptin or resistance problems.

Having said that I still have the desire to eat too much and if I didn't consciously stay aware, I'm sure I could get back to 19 stone in at least that many months.

I also don't believe (personally anyway) that the setpoint corrects in anything less than a few years. Well, certainly not for me anyway

Assuming after 6-10 months my leptin levels and resistance was back to normal would imply that after this time I would have no drive to overeat and would stay at my new weight happily without care.

We know that the majority of people put most of their weight back on within a year, regardless of which diet (sorry folks if this is news to you). For those remaining, it would be easy peasy.

Those who had maintained, would have done a year with a different lifestyle (whilst setpoint was resetting), and surely they would then maintain or only put on a very few pounds owing to age.

But, they don't. Another lot fail in the 2nd year, then more in the 3rd year.

5-6 years seems more of a 'magic' number.

This could well be that it takes 5-6 years to really live that new lifestyle until it feels really natural, but surely if leptin levels are corrected within months, even lifestyle shouldn't be too much of an issue. The drive for your body to stay at it's new weight would stop you ever even wanting to overeat.

Just my theory anyway.

 

[PurpleButterfly]

We know that the majority of people put most of their weight back on within a year, regardless of which diet (sorry folks if this is news to you). For those remaining, it would be easy peasy.

Those who had maintained, would have done a year with a different lifestyle (whilst setpoint was resetting), and surely they would then maintain or only put on a very few pounds owing to age.

But, they don't. Another lot fail in the 2nd year, then more in the 3rd year.

5-6 years seems more of a 'magic' number.

Ok now I find THAT much more depressing than the idea that the body has a setpoint it will try and get back to.

 

[KD]

Ok now I find THAT much more depressing than the idea that the body has a setpoint it will try and get back to.

Whoops sorry

Interestingly though, the 5 year idea was what I was told long before I knew anything about leptin.

Im sure it will vary from person to person, but that number is my goal. Until then I still consider myself a maintainer in training

 

[sukie sue]

what a fantastic thread !!!
thankyou , so fasinating, will have to read more into itxx

 

[nexangelus]

Scientist have been shouting about leptin and the leptin receptors since it was discovered back in 1994. They even made a leptin injection, which actually worked!

Unfortunately, other problems with it, and it was very expensive!

I think Lyle (who is my guru and very well qualified in these things), says it takes a few years.

I've jammed these two quotes together as they fit, because Lyle points out a special Leptin encourageing supplement, which is available here and costs about 25 quid (a pound per serving) BUT you have to be under 25% bodyfat if you are a woman and below 20% for a man and the average for men and women is much higher than these two figures...so mostly lean individuals or bodybuilders are most likely to benefit...

Yep, Lyle has become my guru, he makes soooo much sense KD...

I only heard about the set point thing on that BBC programme about why thin people aren't fat (and again in some of Lyle's writings)...as for the timescale, again that is probably going to be down to genetics, and one's own physiology...we are all so different, it's why different diets work for different peeps and why one person can lose weight doing one thing and another feel horrible and maybe even gain weight...

 

[nexangelus]

From what I have read (much less than KD I can safely assume you cannot build muscle on a calorific deficit - i.e. you need to eat more than you need to maintain your current weight. The diet also needs to have the right amount of protein in it to get the most effecient muscle gain... just something to consider for those people considering looking into this... Lyle McDonalds books explain this all very well...

Yep, this is so...I am trying to build lean mass and have been since April last year...I have managed, but because I haven't kept a strict record of body fat percentages, I know I have dropped from 23 to 19.7% bodyfat in that space, it can take quicker, it can take longer. I am female and I need to supplement with extra protein and I also need to eat more in general in order to gain and maintain lean mass which I have been doing, some days it is a struggle to eat everything, but needs must and all that...I think this might help H some when he decides to weight train...although it can help tone initially...the calories need to be upped so you don't start using your muscles as fuel...(weight training is considered high intensity)

 

[nexangelus]

Ok now I find THAT much more depressing than the idea that the body has a setpoint it will try and get back to.

I don't find it depressing, I find it fascinating!

 

[Huseyin]

Hi Huseyin,

My LLC said that some people choose to do a 'condensed' RTM, where it is shorter than 12 weeks... might be worth asking your LLC if you can do the same...

thank you very much Mini, i just need to reduce it by about 2 weeks or so.

But thanks for the info there im going to look into it

 

[westiegirl]

Mmmm, very interesting and such a lot of information to digest!

Excellent thread

 

[futureyummymummy]

Fab thread and I will be investing in some of the books mentioned here, it's fascinating how it all works although yes slightly depressing about the setpoint/maintenance thing!

xXx

 

[nexangelus]

I have looked up the reference to the set point...and it may seem like bad news to some, but this is what I found and it is quoted from a very clued up athlete who knows what he is talking about (he has researched many many diets and the chemical intricacies of bodies during dieting and exercise, etc and he is a speed skater himself...he has even experimented with many diets to see which suits him as he used to be a fat kid...)

"How the setpoint is set is still being researched. Some of it is assuredly genetic, some people are simply born with a higher setpoint than others. Their bodies regulate bodyweight normally, they simply do it at a higher level of weight/fat."

"There is also some evidence that becoming and staying fat can almost permanently raise the setpoint. There is almost no data indicating that the setpoint can ever be brought back down, at least not within any reasonable time span."

"Studies of both animals and humans who have maintained weight loss for several years shows no spontaneous recovery of metabolism, it remains slightly depressed. My best guess: if the setpoint ever comes back down, it does so after years and years and years of maintaining a lower weight. In that most people will regain the weight within a few years, this is the same as saying that it never happens."

~ A Guide to Flexible Dieting by Lyle McDonald