The changing of Dukan?

[susiecm3]

I know some of you ladies are VERY knowledgeable about dukan and I have seen a lot of talk about the changing of dukan, most of it seems to be from the new versions of books being released, but why is it so negative that new foods have been added and allowed??

I know from experience with any diets, new changes are made all the time to keep them fresh, and also when new research has been done and verified that it still works things change on their plans, slimming worlds latest is 'extra easy', weight watchers have a new plan out

Is it such a bad thing that new foods have been added, surely they would not put it in the books if it did not work as then the diet would loose the good reputation it has got?

Just curious

 

[Maintainer]

Good question.

I've been in and around this diet for a long time, it's true. My negativity comes from seeing so many people in the past struggle with weight loss long term and I think that a lot of the things which have been added in recently detract from the previously "fat free, sugar free" healthy(ish) reputation the diet had in France.

Having said that, if people can eat all the new things AND lose weight sustainably, I'm all for it. This unfortunately is not the case once the tolerated foods become too widely used (we've all seen it here), and/or the dairy intake gets too high, and the slippages become too frequent.

All too often, and we see it on here on a daily basis, people start out all revved up and raring to go, post hourly, and then disappear in a puff of smoke.

In France, in my day at least, his big thing was getting people back into the kitchen cooking from scratch... which was a great selling point compared to certain other diets who sold their foods in boxes and bars and shakes in the supermarkets. Now he's at it too but why not if there's money to be made.

I also raise my eyebrows at that. His French book cost €6 for years but now that he's gone international, he's bringing out food stuffs, and all sorts of weird and wonderful things, and his official websites offer all sorts of conflicting advice and erroneous recipes with fake pictures accompanying them in the most incredible English I've ever heard!

You must have seen also, since you've been around here, people tripping up on the diet and I'm firmly convinced that for heavily obese people, keeping such unhealthy products in one's diet, leaving one balancing a delicate line on the ketosis level, doesn't help resist temptation or alter one's bad diet habits long term.

And there's a bit of "I wasn't allowed, why should you be..." buried deep, I'm sure

 

[Atropos]

I can understand why people who have known and used the diet for some time might be irritated by the changes - after all, it worked in its original format.

I can also see that in each evolution the possibilities for confusion multiply - look at all the debate about flavoured yogurts for example. One misheard or misread phrase could set off a cascade of chinese whispers, which could destroy the reputation of the diet.

(Consider for example - lots of American news sources are fixated on the fact that the diet "lets you eat desert once a week" (I eat desert every day - only it's zero-fat ice-cream or a gallette - but I don't think it's what the US writers had in mind when they wrote that).

But I can also see that the original diet was designed with the French food culture in mind, and that if it is to succeed elsewhere it has to be tweaked to be palatable to local food culture - for example in the Far East, where meat is much less widely eaten, but soya products are staples.

 

[Sander23]

As one of the newbies, with a slightly different book - I can say that I am cooking a lot - nothing in the book has led me to believe that I can go out and buy prepared foods and expect to succeed. I haven't heard anything about eating desert "once a week" - I heard about the diet on one of the national morning news programs and they were interviewing Dr. Dukan. He sounded reasonable and it sounded like a plan that might be something I could follow and succeed with. So I started researching on the internet, lurking about the forums on his official sites, on the Dukaner board, and on this board. Bought the book. Read it twice. (btw $12.45) Talked to my family about the commitment and types of food we'd be having and how we could make it work. Then I started the diet and joined this forum after finding that the coaching sites were not working

The major differences that we have noticed from my book to the original are:
- inclusion of lean pork from the very beginning. The rules on ham appear to be the same: extra lean, low salt, no rind, eat occasionally, eliminate if you appear to stall.

- the yogurt piece in my book does allow for the no-fat, splenda sweetened variety with fruit flavoring up to 8 oz. a day, but warns that this may slow your weight loss and that if you want fast weight loss you are better off avoiding them all together.

I would like to post snippets of my version of the book, but I think that would violate copyright, and re-typing is a pain.

 

[Maintainer]

The rules on ham in the French truly original book are only "fat free". In France, there is a disgusting transparent square excuse for "ham" called "fat free ham". Lovely not. Aside from that, pork is banned. They allowed a little for the British palate, and now more for the American. You have to raise a little eyebrow surely?

 

[Emms24]

I have to say I agree with maintainer about being allowed certain things on the diet which you shouldn't really be eating when being healthy. I know myself what I'm like and if I crave sweetness I keep going and going usually until I feel sick (this was before dukan) but now I try to avoid anything sweet, with the exception of my muller yoghurt for breakfast.

I used to eat chocolate everyday after lunch and i'd crave sweetness after my tea on an evening on during the day but now I don't! I don't even think about chocolate whereas I used to eat it at least twice a day. So I won't even consider having the low fat cocoa powder you are apparently now allowed.

If I used loads of splenda and things like that I'd end up relaunching my ridiculous sweet tooth so only use it when it's that time of the month and I cannot ignore my cravings (I tend to be exhausted in the days leadin up to my period so need some form of sugar)

I know maintainer wasn't just talking about sweet stuff but thought i'd chip in.

I hope that makes sense to everyone. I have to admit it made more sense in my head than reading it back lol x

 

[Maintainer]

Thank you Ems... I'm very much like you in that respect. I lost most of my weight with a self devised "healthy eating" plan in which I didn't use sweetener at all (but did have fruit). Now I've lowered my principles(!), but still try not to return to the old habits where possible...

 

[Sander23]

We do have a very strong "pork" lobby which has been very involved in establishing lean pork as a healthy protein, similar to chicken breast and turkey breast. There may have been some influence on Dr. Dukan by them as they have loads of statistics and science backing up their position.

For the sweets, I treat myself to a sugar-free jello at the end of the day and I use 1/2 tsp truvia in my gallette, but other than that the sweetest food I've had is butternut squash soup!

I saw the cocoa powder on the Dukan web site - it doesn't look any different to me than the Hershey's baking cocoa.(link provided as citation, not advertising) My nutritionist told me that if I had severe chocolate cravings to take 1/4 tsp of that cocoa and mix it with 1/2 cup hot water and drink it. No sweetener of any kind! It is nasty, but did kill the craving and it didn't recur during the course of the diet (I lost 83 lbs) - but as we all know, once you go back to your bad habits, the weight comes back too.

 

[robinhood]

The rules on ham in the French truly original book are only "fat free". In France, there is a disgusting transparent square excuse for "ham" called "fat free ham". Lovely not. Aside from that, pork is banned. They allowed a little for the British palate, and now more for the American. You have to raise a little eyebrow surely?

As an aside, you can get 'unsquare' DD ham, Jo (Madrange is bad - bitty texture, Herta better, even Lidl acceptable). I agree 100% that the square stuff should be banned, diet or not, but the 'normal' shaped ham isn't too bad (very salty, but the odd slice is OK) and half a slice jazzes up an omelette for a nice change.

I have to say (don't copy me!) that I occasionally had lean pork steaks - 3% fat, I think. Wasn't a regular event but did make a nice change.

In any case, Dukan has succeeded in 'making' me cook without added fat, trimming fat off (if there is any) and being more inventive with 0% sauces and generally experimenting and of course, introduced me to the excellent brans. Also found me this truly brilliant forum.

To have a stricter outlook (apart from asking on here, obviously) maybe scour ebay/charity shops for older versions of the book. Correct me if I'm mistaken (Jo), but I don't recall tolerated items being in the book (French) and I'd not have known about them had it not been for here.

 

[Maintainer]

You're right Robin. The "tolerated items" were brought in a few years down the line. In the (ORIGINAL) French book, even the galette isn't obligatory on a daily basis and is mentioned quite late on in the book, so many wouldn't ever get to it!


One thing I will add though - if you all bear with me - is that I'm noticing two things at the moment with the high influx of new people on the site. There are some querying why we're anti the new things he's allowing, and quoting the book at us (whereas we're merely passing on our experience, and then it's up to each individual what to do with that knowledge!) and raring to tuck into the tolerated foods soonest. And there are those questioning and wondering why they aren't losing weight at the cracking speed some have heard about. <Now I wonder whether the two are connected?!>

and we've just learned that one Starbucks skinny latte contains twice the allowed milk allowance for a day!

 

[Emms24]

I didn't realise we only allowed a certain amount of milk a day. I don't drink much of it but sometimes I fancy a glass before bed, how much are you allowed? X

 

[susiecm3]

Great replies, I am glad they have allowed sweetener mind, one thing I need is my coffee sweetened, dont know why but I can give up anything else lol

I got the books and read them, then seen loads of differences on here so don't even open them now, I use the recipes from here and apart from the very occasional baking powder item for muffins I try to keep away from the others, I love FF fromaige with a tiny bit sweetener mixed with my oat bran, I just think of it as a posh yoghurt so dont bother with the ones on the tolerated list Going to the allotment tomorrow and get a piece of rhubarb and might add that into it

I suppose its like all diets, SW says you can eat as much as you like BUT you get to a point where you have to look at portions and what you are eating, 5 punnets of grapes a day is not going to help you loose weight lol

Glad I did not understand the tolerated items when I started so never put them in my diet as a regular thing

 

[jaqys]

The pork thing amuses me but I didnt really understand why lean pork wasnt allowed in the first place.

The addition of (expensive) high carb stuff like goji berries and the mention of prunes annoys me, mostly as I know I cant tolerate that level of sugar and stay on an even keel, so am jealous of those that can.

Dairy we've seen as something that stalls people, Brownie_Earthquake saw pretty instant results when she cut back to get to goal.

I am glad its a part of the diet we know we women need to keep our calcium intakes up, but we know it needs to be limited and so when the rules seem to be relaxed its perplexing.

With the eggs we go from 2 yolks a day if cholesterol problems, in the book, updated to 2 a day for all in chat , to 5 a week a week later, the changes can be very frustrating - more so for those who are paying $$$$ for coaching than those who are here.

 

[Maintainer]

I didn't realise we only allowed a certain amount of milk a day. I don't drink much of it but sometimes I fancy a glass before bed, how much are you allowed? X

Skimmed milk only, 250ml maxi per day (counts in your 1L dairy allowance). Unlimited dairy in attack.

 

[anjuschka]

What a useful question!

I agree with most things too, I had to find 'my own' way and *I* did that by following the English book to the letter (nearly.... see below), getting additional info from the French forums (and here of course!) and it worked for me...

What rules you follow is *up to you* but as with most diets - the stricter you are the better it works....

Regarding the 'extension' and relaxing of rules - yes he is trying to adapt to national cultures (sort of, we ask ourselves who he's got as advisors though!). And then we see the 'chat' on the official site where lots of questions get answered, and not always how the old-timers would expect them to be answered. I think it has to do with MONEY (sorry!) - Example: someone asks about Wine - what shall we do - say 'no alcohol under any circumstances' - they go away and look ofr a different diet... but if we say 'one glass a week' (or whatever) they might actually like that they hear and ENROL for coaching.

Recent influx: yes I have noticed too. Several reasons I think: 'the Middleton effect', and the complete fiasco with the official coaching site (no idea what happened there though). And: pre-summer quick results diets must be in vogue now, just as you dug out that bikini...

How I treated the diet and the tolerateds:

1, used the book.
Simple: no fruit (not even in yoghurt), limited veg, no starches, no sugar and derivatives. Dairy limited to 1l, fine. I did not watch the split between milk and others, suspect there were days when I overdid the milk. No pork, no lamb, no fatty cuts etc etc. Low-fat ham allowed. I did have low-fat ham and other (chicken, turkey) cold meats whilst being aware that they should not become my main protein intake.
Some tolerateds like cornflour are mentioned in the book, so I used those with care and not every day.
Came on here and found out about permitted vanilla and toffee yoghurts as the ones mentioned in the book as unlimited (the fruit FLAVOURED ones with sweetener) do not exist over here. Mostly stuck to sweetening my own.

2, later I found the FRENCH unofficial list of all foods including tolerateds.
Tous les aliments Dukan autorisés, interdits, tolérés et les adjuvants pour cuisiner - Recettes Dukan pour le Régime Dukan
Used that as a reference when I needed a respite (low fat sausages)

I guess we're all different and if you're on here you're most likely doing this 'on your own', with no slimming group / club or otherwise to help you out or even tell you off to your face, if that's what you need. Some people are always going to stretch the rules as far as they can and don't want to hear the advice given (in good faith by those who have found out the hard way).

SO yes a diet evolves but when it slowly slides from a 'back to basics' diet with no processed foods to a WW type diet where most things are allowed, even in small measures and in fat- or sugar-reduced versions then you have to WONDER what's the motivation. I have no doubt that in his heart of hearts DrD is still the old one and would hope all follow 'the old diet' but I guess he's seen that relaxing it *a little* helped a lot of people (when on the verge of cracking) but relaxing it *a lot* will be counter-productive - for the Diet per se and for the dieters themselves.... And then his accountant had a word...

Oh dear I've gone over my work limit again - sorry!

 

[Maintainer]

Fabulous post Anja

 

[anjuschka]

Fabulous post Anja

Yours aren't that bad either!!

In fact: WHAT WOULD WE DO WITHOUT YOU JOANNE??

Especially on this subject!

 

[Maintainer]

I think I'm a little overly cynical these days... my eyebrow seems permanently raised!

(oh and ref the pork question above - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, and of course I can't find it now, that he's of Tunisian extraction... (anyone confirm?) I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with his being anti pork... )

 

[anjuschka]

I think I'm a little overly cynical these days... my eyebrow seems permanently raised!

(oh and ref the pork question above - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, and of course I can't find it now, that he's of Tunisian extraction... (anyone confirm?) I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with his being anti pork... )

Yes I think it was in one of the articles you shared - I thought the reference to 'Pied-noir' completely unnecessary so it stuck in my mind!

 

[Atropos]

I love the simplicity of the core diet - "Here is a list of fresh real foods foods. Here is a list of seasonings. Cook with them. Eat them. If you do this following a few very basic rules about water, oat bran and not using the lift, you will lose weight and not feel hungry."

Then tolerated items creep in - and yes, it's wonderful to have a few extras to play with from time to time - soy sauce, a toffee yogurt, cornflour to bind a cake, a coffee spoonful of cocoa powder. As a treat.

But then the tolerated items become standard, and people want to why, if they enjoy a toffee yogurt every day they can't have a fruity one now and then? As a treat. And if plain yogurt has natural carbs in it - why not buy that instant sauce mix with only a few grams of carb in it - even if the carb is potato flour. It's more convenient, and what's the difference between potato and lactose anyway?

And suddenly it's not a low-carb, low-fat Dukan diet at all, one which forces the body to burn fat without making you hungry, but a low-ish fat, low-ish carb, low-ish calorie diet which will cause spikes in blood sugar after lunch, and overwhelming hunger pangs in the afternoon.

So, after only three very successful and very happy months on the diet, and many many tasty meals - including dinner parties and family picnics - I find I am siding more and more with the "old-timers" on this issue.