determinator
Banned
unfortunately the NHS is not a bottomless pit of money , they would love to be able to help everyone who needs it, but its just not possible , i am very glad i dont have to make those decisions !!
Man suing the NHS for a gastric bypass .....opinions
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This would be beneficial for a lot of people if the NHS made it available to everyone, unfortunately, it's just not the case because of budgets. I don't understand why the NHS don't offer the hypno gastric band, it's so much cheaper than a real one & has a lot of positive things said about it!
The NHS doesn't seem to really want to help people with weight problems & that's awful.
kingleds
Gold Member
It never ceases to surprise me how passionate people get on this subject.
I can actually see everyones view point on this. It is true that it seems this man got himself in this situation. It is also true that the NHS has finite resources & perhaps the money being spent on lawyers etc could be used elsewhere.
This is, however, the tip of a very big iceberg. If we start restricting services on the nhs because people have done this to themselves then we are in a slippery slope. On this basis, i could have been refused treatment on the NHS for my back
Problems, because i was overweight. Equally, my father could have been refused cancer treatment because he used to be a smoker.
This man has months to live apparently, and i for one would not want to be the one making the decision about whether he lives or dies, and the quality of his life whilst he is here.
There is alot that is unknown about his situation, and i therefore do not feel i have enough information to make an informed judgement on whether he deserves the surgery, or if it is a good use of NhS resources.
As to the OP question - my opinion on WLS is that its the individuals choice & that whilst it is not an avenue i would explore, i do understand why people go for it.
I can actually see everyones view point on this. It is true that it seems this man got himself in this situation. It is also true that the NHS has finite resources & perhaps the money being spent on lawyers etc could be used elsewhere.
This is, however, the tip of a very big iceberg. If we start restricting services on the nhs because people have done this to themselves then we are in a slippery slope. On this basis, i could have been refused treatment on the NHS for my back
Problems, because i was overweight. Equally, my father could have been refused cancer treatment because he used to be a smoker.
This man has months to live apparently, and i for one would not want to be the one making the decision about whether he lives or dies, and the quality of his life whilst he is here.
There is alot that is unknown about his situation, and i therefore do not feel i have enough information to make an informed judgement on whether he deserves the surgery, or if it is a good use of NhS resources.
As to the OP question - my opinion on WLS is that its the individuals choice & that whilst it is not an avenue i would explore, i do understand why people go for it.
ermintrude
Gold Member
I'm not aware of any attempt to 'sue' going on - as far as I know he has simply made an appeal against the decision to allow him the surgery, but I've only read the BBC account: BBC News - Man appeals for NHS gastric bypass surgery, there might be other info but I haven't read it.
From what I can gather the usual BMI for weight loss surgery is 40 (his is 43) or lower "if they have other serious medical conditions" (which he does), but his PCT has set a higher limit of 50 (presumably to cut costs), which to be fair is treating people unequally and could be seen as a breach of his human rights (although this doesn't seem to be where he has brought human rights into the argument - that seems to be the right to a family life). Where he lives has absolutely no relevance to whether he is in need of treatment, we should all be treated equally.
He also says "even an extremely calorie-restricted diet has failed to help him lose weight" - that doesn't necessarily mean that even on minimal calories he isn't losing weight (and therefore bariatric surgery woudlnt work) - it might mean that (for whatever reason) he isn't able to stick to manage such a diet. (Realistically, how many of us on here stick to plan 100%? Its not easy and lots of people out there have many problems, physical and mental, that might make it difficult or imposible to do so - without knowing this guy we can't judge him. Maybe he is being out of order but he sounds pretty desperate to be doing this.
Sorry if Im repeating what others have said, this thread is filing up with replies faster than I can write...
kirstabubble
Silver Member
So imagine this...you're a General Manager of the NHS. You have three cases in front of you. One is a three year old with a congenital heart defect, one is a 45 year old, otherwise healthy woman with breast cancer, and one is a 62 year old man whose obesity has given him life threatening diabetes.
Who would you choose? Because essentially, that's what these people have to do in their budget meetings.
I'm not aware of any attempt to 'sue' going on - as far as I know he has simply made an appeal against the decision to allow him the surgery, but I've only read the BBC account: BBC News - Man appeals for NHS gastric bypass surgery, there might be other info but I haven't read it.
From what I can gather the usual BMI for weight loss surgery is 40 (his is 43) or lower "if they have other serious medical conditions" (which he does), but his PCT has set a higher limit of 50 (presumably to cut costs), which to be fair is treating people unequally and could be seen as a breach of his human rights (although this doesn't seem to be where he has brought human rights into the argument - that seems to be the right to a family life). Where he lives has absolutely no relevance to whether he is in need of treatment, we should all be treated equally.
He also says "even an extremely calorie-restricted diet has failed to help him lose weight" - that doesn't necessarily mean that even on minimal calories he isn't losing weight (and therefore bariatric surgery woudlnt work) - it might mean that (for whatever reason) he isn't able to stick to manage such a diet. (Realistically, how many of us on here stick to plan 100%? Its not easy and lots of people out there have many problems, physical and mental, that might make it difficult or imposible to do so - without knowing this guy we can't judge him. Maybe he is being out of order but he sounds pretty desperate to be doing this.
Sorry if Im repeating what others have said, this thread is filing up with replies faster than I can write...
The only reason I said the word 'sue' was because I was under the impression he was actually suing them them.. It wasn't until I researched further & found the BBC article you mentioned that I realised he wasn't suing them, just appealing. I don't know why the OP used that as her thread title.. It seems much worse!
I agree with everything you have said.
It wouldn't come down to those particular three people though, would it? These are completely different departments who will have their own budgets so that comment isn't really fair, is it?
I understand that the decision would be a difficult one & sometimes people get turned down for procedures. I like to hope that if his appeal gets rejected, that they would try to help him in some other way. But, chances are, they won't.
jaylou
Gold Member
If this is the case, why are such things as SW and WW on referral available? Again, it's a "postcode lottery" but they are available.
My GP also offers a weekly WI and nutritional/diet advice.
Perhaps we are lucky in our area to have this, I don't know but options are there.
In my area however, you only get one shot at IVF, whereas in others you get more. Again, a decision the PCT has made.
I think we are very very fortunate to have an NHS service in this country but sadly, they can't treat everyone these days.
kirstabubble
Silver Member
Yes, but somebody at the top has to allocate those different department those budgets, and so make those sorts of decisions.
At the end of the day, somebody is going to miss out on the treatment they need, whether it is this guy, or someone not in the news. It's sad, and it is unfair, but compare us to the US, where they wouldn't even give you stitches without seeing your medical insurance certificate first, and we're lucky to have the NHS at all.
None of the weight related things you mentioned are available from my NHS, so it's the postcode lottery at work again. I would love a SW referral as I can't afford it myself. My GP also doesn't offer any weigh ins or nutritional advice.
The last time I spoke to my GP about my eating disorder, she recommended I joined WW (which I couldn't afford, nor did I see it as a real way to help me, I needed counselling)
& as I can't conceive because of PCOS (which they think might be related to my weight), I was referred to a conception/weight loss counsellor who simply told me to join Tesco Diets!
I saw ONE nutritionist, who gave me a bunch of leaflets & sent me on my way.
Starlight
Gold Member
You should take a look over at Minimins sister site WLSurgery.com - Weight Loss Surgery Support
The people on there who have opted for surgery are actually at the desperate stage. Theyve tried diets, theyve tried guidance education and determination and havent succeeded
They see WLS as a very last option and not one they take lightly its far far far from laziness on their part, believe me.
I dont know why this has specifically made the news, again if you look at the WLS forum people get rejected with amazing regularity and appeal, fight their case and sometimes win, sometimes dont.
I think needs to review a lot of their policies. THe first one being the scrapping of prescription charges in Scotland and Wales. The NHS is on its knees financially yet has stopped something that generated billions in revenue, for no really solid reason. Billions of £s that could go a long way to scrapping the postcode lottery in many cases.
I do have to admit, peronally. for the most part I dont agree with SW/WW referrals on the NHS either i think in a lot of cases those very limited facitilies arent going to those who best need them.
Shirleen
Gold Member
I know a lady who has recently had a Gastric band fitted on the NHS. Now I understand why she had it done, but I remember giving her a lift home one evening and her shopping bag was full of packets of biscuits, earlier she'd told me she was 'going shopping for her tea'.
So she will have learned nothing about her appalling eating habits.
She has lost 3 stone in 6 weeks...what's the betting that she will also need a tummy tuck later on?
I also read recently of a woman who had lost 12 stone, was still 20 stone but now had serious problems with excess skin, when she walked she was literally kneeing her belly out of the way! She has ulcers all over her body and cannot leave the house. Her local authority will do nothing to help because she is still obese.
I don't know what the answer is I'm just saying that there are impossible stories all over the country and the line ought to be drawn somewhere.
So she will have learned nothing about her appalling eating habits.
She has lost 3 stone in 6 weeks...what's the betting that she will also need a tummy tuck later on?
I also read recently of a woman who had lost 12 stone, was still 20 stone but now had serious problems with excess skin, when she walked she was literally kneeing her belly out of the way! She has ulcers all over her body and cannot leave the house. Her local authority will do nothing to help because she is still obese.
I don't know what the answer is I'm just saying that there are impossible stories all over the country and the line ought to be drawn somewhere.
RasberryRed
Full Member
It's a complicated issue. In my opinion I believe the NHS isn't try to skrew people out of healthcare. In fact most of the NHS professionals I know do the very best they can with what they have. In the economic situation that the world has found itself in, it never ceases to amaze me how much people still believe they are entitled to. OF course budgets are being cut, of course people are missing out on basics. Such is life in a recession. Will there be unfair treatment? Totally. But the fact that one can in the UK see a licensed medical professional for free is amazing. Being an Ex Pat of the United States, I chuckle sometimes when I hear about people's beef with the NHS. I have lived in a few different countries with free health care, and I wonder how people would react if every time they wanted to see a doctor they had to pay £75-150 for a drop in visit. I did, when I was growing up. Just a check up. Run an STD test with the appointment was over £400. Again it's different there, and the system works for those who have the money to pay for medical care. We won't go into insurance.
For this man, I don't know his story. But I do know this. I have worked pro bono in a few developing countries, and people there do not die of obesity or obesity related complications. They do not die of diabetes. They die of AIDS, malaria, war and starvation. This man, is exercising his rights to appeal the NHS decision. I'm all for due process, so fine. However, the amount of money in many western countries which is poured ailments that we ourselves have made is staggering. We could go round and round where the money "should" go - but to me, to pay for this man's surgery, if the decision was mine, I would not side in his favor. Because in these times of economic duress, I would rather allocate it to someone whose suffering is not of their own making. Because people who have nothing do not wake up obese. You need actual calories for that.
For this man, I don't know his story. But I do know this. I have worked pro bono in a few developing countries, and people there do not die of obesity or obesity related complications. They do not die of diabetes. They die of AIDS, malaria, war and starvation. This man, is exercising his rights to appeal the NHS decision. I'm all for due process, so fine. However, the amount of money in many western countries which is poured ailments that we ourselves have made is staggering. We could go round and round where the money "should" go - but to me, to pay for this man's surgery, if the decision was mine, I would not side in his favor. Because in these times of economic duress, I would rather allocate it to someone whose suffering is not of their own making. Because people who have nothing do not wake up obese. You need actual calories for that.
kirstabubble
Silver Member
Starlight said:
Hence me saying that WLS isn't an easy option either.
kirstabubble
Silver Member
Sorry, I sent that post before I finished!
I PERSONALLY don't agree with WLS. that's just my opinion, as controversial as it is. I don't think it teaches people to have a better relationship with food, and if people do feel WLS is their last resort, then it should be done privately, not on the NHS, unless the reason for their obesity is out of their control.
But that's just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
I PERSONALLY don't agree with WLS. that's just my opinion, as controversial as it is. I don't think it teaches people to have a better relationship with food, and if people do feel WLS is their last resort, then it should be done privately, not on the NHS, unless the reason for their obesity is out of their control.
But that's just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
ermintrude
Gold Member
Starlight
Gold Member
I have to admit I do for the most part agree with that, unless the weight issue is life threatening - and I dont mean, in 5/10 years I mean really life threatening then Im not sure it should be NHS funded
What I really dont understand is when people have to lose X Stone to be considered for it....
I think the same goes for Slimming club/gym referrals, except in very special circumstances, personally I dont see why the NHS should pay for those either.
kingleds
Gold Member
I actually agree with you Starlight. I don't really agree with the NHS paying for SW or WW referals.
I also agree that WLS surgery does not appear to teach portion control or healthy eating HOWEVER if you go to the WW board you would see people saying exactly the same thing about SW!
I also agree that WLS surgery does not appear to teach portion control or healthy eating HOWEVER if you go to the WW board you would see people saying exactly the same thing about SW!
judywoody
Full Member
Ok - I do agree with some arguments on both sides here...let's have a look at the facts:
-his weight issues (probably self-induced) are LIFE THREATENING
-he said a low calorie diet didn't work
-WLS will do exactly THAT - it will restrict his calories to a minimum (and might possible put him into another life threatening situation - lack of nutrition)
-He is desperate (obviously not desperate enough to try and stick to a strict diet for a few month - if a diet won't work then WLS won't either)
-and he is NOT desperate enough either to spend his own savings on WLS)
Well, yes "postcode lottery" can be unfair. But we are not talking about denied cancer treatment or the like. We are talking about WLS surgery. A service that is free in SOME PLC's but not everywhere - for ONE particular reason - It's an unnecessary luxury! What would help him (and would probably be cheaper) is monitored hospital treatment (don't know if something like this exists in GB) to see if he really can't lose weight on a calorie restricted diet and to help him to recover from his eating disorder (yes, overeating is an eating disorder - even if you are over 60) and psychological treatment.
Don't get me wrong - I know it is hard to lose weight, I did it myself hundreds of times. And for whatever reason he can't stick to it. BUT if you are REALLY desperate and in a life threatening situation then you can stick to everything.
But the way - helping smokers to treat their addiction is not quite as expensive as WLS.
-his weight issues (probably self-induced) are LIFE THREATENING
-he said a low calorie diet didn't work
-WLS will do exactly THAT - it will restrict his calories to a minimum (and might possible put him into another life threatening situation - lack of nutrition)
-He is desperate (obviously not desperate enough to try and stick to a strict diet for a few month - if a diet won't work then WLS won't either)
-and he is NOT desperate enough either to spend his own savings on WLS)
Well, yes "postcode lottery" can be unfair. But we are not talking about denied cancer treatment or the like. We are talking about WLS surgery. A service that is free in SOME PLC's but not everywhere - for ONE particular reason - It's an unnecessary luxury! What would help him (and would probably be cheaper) is monitored hospital treatment (don't know if something like this exists in GB) to see if he really can't lose weight on a calorie restricted diet and to help him to recover from his eating disorder (yes, overeating is an eating disorder - even if you are over 60) and psychological treatment.
Don't get me wrong - I know it is hard to lose weight, I did it myself hundreds of times. And for whatever reason he can't stick to it. BUT if you are REALLY desperate and in a life threatening situation then you can stick to everything.
But the way - helping smokers to treat their addiction is not quite as expensive as WLS.
chiefbridesmaid
Silver Member
Yeah its a sad fact, you get a medical card if your on social welfare or low income families sometimes but unfortunately those of us who work have to pay :cry: I honestly would have to be dying to see the doctor because it usually ends up costing €50 for the visit that lasts 5mins then you have to pay for xrays, a&e if you have to go and all your medication on top of that. Last time it cost me €200 and i had no money for food or petrol for the rest of the month.
Its why i personally get angry about people taking advantage of free health care. and we were asked for our opinions on the matter of him sueing the NHS and thats what i put forward so dont understand the anger in the thread.
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