Self-Sabotage - HELP!

[Mrs Lard]

OK, so I thought I had signed off for the night, had a bath but kept thinking about this and about Karion's post about addictive desire (AD). And peptides. Karion - I think I missed the bits about peptides...??

Anyway, do read the thread; it's worth it.

So, here are some questions (that are on my mind and that may be relevant to Sarah (Cerulean) too):

Karion - how do you do moderation? I have noticed that I start eating but then can't stop (slipping nicely into self-sabotage). I put in my blog - abstinence I can do, moderation I can't do. And I really want to get to the bottom of it.

My issues seem to be boundaries (how are they for everyone else?) and...moderation. Some would argue that moderation is also tied up with boundaries. I don't know but the way I feel when I eat is that abstinence is WAAAAYYYYY easier! As we have said, it's a quieter place!!

But unlike other addicts, we CAN'T stop eating (as in be abstinent for the rest of our lives from the substance to which we are addicted). We have to learn moderation. HCW - do you have any thoughts on this?

Sarah - fruit - there is a school of thought (ie the anti-candida school!) that says fruit is severely if not totally restricted. If you are doing the anti-candida diet, you are allowed no fruit! Something about fermentation, I think...so that may be why it's such a trigger for you. But hey, I don't want to start diagnosing over the net....

And the second question, to Karion, as a successful weight holder (!) is...how has a VLCD and subsequent maintenance affected your friendships and other key relationships? Has it had a positive/negative effect? Do you feel changed as a person? Do you feel - now that you have recognised ADs - that some of your friends/peers/family won't ever understand? And if so, how do you feel about that? Do you feel as if you have been on a massive journey but that other people will only see the weight loss?

This year I have been physically (geographically) removed from many friends; so many of them know nothing about LighterLife and my weight loss. As I progress with my interpretative Route to Management, it's dawning on me how different my life is going to have to be (to sustain this weight loss/smaller frame). I'm not seeing that necessarily as a bad thing but it will affect how I live my life in future.

My view, right now, is that the 'dieting' element of LighterLife has got me to a starting point (of a good weight/size) but it's only really now and in the coming weeks that the REAL work begins. It's as if the losing weight was the warm-up!

This is where I am right now, as I wrote in the blog tonight:

"I just wish I could apply what I have learnt so far, which is as follows:

* it takes me AGES to feel full (as in several hours) so overeating catches up (with my system) eventually - but it's certainly A LOT longer than the 20 minutes that every diet book seems to mention;
* if I am deriving very little pleasure from what I am eating, chances are, it isn't what I want (or need);
* it's amazing how LITTLE food I need day-to-day - that's taking A LOT of mental adjustment;
* eating late at night = weight gain, FACT (for my body);
* unless I sit down, calmly, and eat a meal, uninterrupted, I don't feel satisfied - I don't register what I am eating;
* without routine, my eating becomes chaotic and unstructured ie a lot of picking goes on and a lot of food gets eaten, which isn't enjoyed and doesn't feel 'worth it';
* sandwiches really don't agree with me - they do make me feel bloated;
* tiredness will make me eat ANYTHING sweet, crispy or chewy - crisps, biscuits or cakes (and the biscuits/cakes thing is new and...unwelcome);
* when I feel in control, I am in control of my eating and when I am in control of my eating, I feel marginally better;
* I know what different weights feel like and can now guess - accurately - what my weight will be in the mornings;
* what I eat affects my self-esteem (more on this later - thanks to Gillian Riley for insight)."

Really look forward to some more of your insights....

Thank you and goodnight!

Mrs Lxxxxxxxxx

 

[KD]

Oh goodness, there is so much I want to say and it's all going to come out in a hickledy pickledy fashion.

OK, so I thought I had signed off for the night, had a bath but kept thinking about this and about Karion's post about addictive desire (AD). And peptides. Karion - I think I missed the bits about peptides...??

What? The bit I wrote? I'll copy what I wrote in my thread here

It was always thought that you couldn’t get biologically addicted to food as you need to eat, to grow. Fats that we eat makes our brains respond in a positive way which makes us want to eat more, but it seems that the fat activates these proteins called peptides which stimulate appetite and stimulate feelings of addiction.

There are non opiate peptides and opiate peptides. The non opiate peptides make us enjoy certain foods and as such make us want more, but the more we have the more the opiate peptides come about. The opiate peptides cause the cravings. You don’t even have to digest the peptides. Even if it was just injected straight into your bloodstream, you would have the same problem. It would still affect the structure of the brain and its thought that these peptides interfere with the satiety process, making you hungry quicker and craving foods high in fat.

Fascinating stuff. Just a little bit of the puzzle though.

Karion - how do you do moderation?

Ahhh, the million dollar question. I think it took a number of steps for me to get to that point, and I'm not sure whether it was all these steps or just some of them that made it happen in the end.

For the first year after I had finished Cambridge, I calorie counted. This was so that I could experiment with different foods, practice the AD thingy to learn how to control my trigger foods.

With calorie counting at maintenance figures, I knew I could eat anything I wanted. It gave me the freedom to try things and note how they effected me. It was a huge learning curve, once I really put my mind to it and stopped treating it like a diet as such, but instead used it to really get to grips with my eating disorder.

I have noticed that I start eating but then can't stop (slipping nicely into self-sabotage).

It takes practice. At first you might want to just dish up smaller portions then practice the AD thing. You've read the GR book, you know the deal

When it goes wrong, it's easy to think that you aren't managing, that you've failed, or that what you are trying isn't working. You need to put that aside. Like a child at school, we don't get it right all the time, sometimes we can have crosses against all our work for a while, but every time we eat, we are starting again. Giving ourselves a chance to try again.

Notice that I say 'every time we eat', not every fresh day. There is no start or end point, only the present.

But unlike other addicts, we CAN'T stop eating (as in be abstinent for the rest of our lives from the substance to which we are addicted).

That's true, but I think you have to put the fact that you are biologically addicted to food to one side. As addicts, we are very good at making excuses, and though there may be an element of truth it leaves us powerless. It undermines what we can really do. We have the perfect excuse for why we eat.....we can't help it...we are addicted.

The truth is, our minds are incredibly powerful and whether it's a biological addiction or a psychological addiction, we have the power to deal with it.

Triggers

I had a ton of trigger foods. My first plan was to learn how to control them. For a while I even thought I would have to eliminate them from my diet.

In the end I decided that I had to approach it differently. Learn from it. I had to learn how to control them rather than eliminate them, as at the time they were my fav foods and I knew that I would want to eat them at some point. I used the AD in the early stages.

I now have no trigger foods. I do not need to control them, they just aren't there.

I do have foods that make me feel good, and some that have the opposite effect, but I don't say I can't have it or I lose control. I may (or may not) decide not to eat something because I don't like what it is doing to me. That is different from saying I can't have something.

More in a minute.

 

[KD]

And the second question, to Karion, as a successful weight holder (!) is...how has a VLCD and subsequent maintenance affected your friendships and other key relationships?

I don’t think it has. I’m still me. I still love my friends and family, and I hope they love me just as they did before.

Has it had a positive/negative effect

Neither in terms of my relationship with others. Maybe I haven’t let it be. Maybe I’m just lucky I do notice a very slight feeling of envy from my very best friend but it is only slight. She is overweight. We were fat friends together and of course we have lost that title, but there is more to our friendship than size. I don’t make anything of it. I certainly don’t rub it in. It’s not mentioned really. Just the odd moment when the subject comes up, but I try to leave it to her to control when it’s discussed. It’s very rare. I didn’t really talk much about my dieting life when it was happening anyway. My size doesn’t define me.

She’ll do what she needs to do when she is ready and if she wants help I’ll be there for her. My relationship with DH and sons hasn’t changed at all. He loved me as much then as now and vice versa.

Do you feel changed as a person?

Nope. I’m still me funnily enough I feel heaps better. I have more energy, I feel younger etc, but I don’t think my character has changed at all. Hang on, I’ll ask DH……………………………………………………..

Ahhh, he said “Nah….you’re still as barmy as ever”

Do you feel - now that you have recognised ADs - that some of your friends/peers/family won't ever understand?

They don’t have to understand. Only I need to understand. They just have to accept that I do what I have to do. I don’t look to them for understanding nor support. That’s not to say they are unsupportive. Again, it’s not really discussed in great detail.

I never tried to get DH to understand, because if he really understands he might try and help. If that happens then I might stop helping myself. I’m like that. Always happy to let others do the jobs I don’t want to do.

But. I am lucky. We love each to bits and can accept each others oddities

Do you feel as if you have been on a massive journey but that other people will only see the weight loss?

Oh yes, most definitely!!! Perhaps that’s why I use forums for discussing the weight business. It saddens me to some extent, but how can they understand? The truth is, is has little to do with them and though I would love them to all realize what I’ve been through, they will never really understand unless they go through it themselves.

So, at the end of the day, it was my journey to make me feel better. It has to be for yourself alone. If you can be truly selfish about it, then you have a higher chance of succeeding because you don’t rely on others and your motivation comes solely from within. You are with you 24/7 after all, and until you can do it for you you’ll be looking for the right reactions from others to help you along the way. Unfortunately, people have a nasty habit of saying something wrong. Even if it’s praise, it can lead you astray.

 

[KD]

My view, right now, is that the 'dieting' element of LighterLife has got me to a starting point (of a good weight/size) but it's only really now and in the coming weeks that the REAL work begins. It's as if the losing weight was the warm-up!

So true, and this is what befuddles me. When I was dieting, I was so hungry for info about maintaining. I wanted to know how to do it! How to get off that dieting wagon forever. The forum I was on didn’t discuss it at all. There was no ‘after’.

Now I’m on a forum where is does get discussed, most people don’t want to know. Even people that have reached goals, turn a blind eye. Yet I would say that most dieters realize that the job really begins when you get to goal. They will admit to this in their threads, but they don’t really see the need to explore.

This isn’t a criticism. Perhaps this is human nature and I’m a different breed

I love it when someone like yourself, starts asking questions and takes the time to try and understand.

I’m sure I’m too wordy and people look at my long answers and move along quick, but maintenance is long and complex. We don’t have lots of quick questions from other members, so I have to make the most of it when we do

And boy oh boy. I have even more to say on this thread. People are going to think I'm absolutely barmy. Thank goodness I'm a quick typist

 

[chunkychicken]

Karion,

Just wanted to but in to say that you are one in a million - you should offer weekend retreats so people like us can absorb your knowledge and common sense. I always feel calmed when I read your replies as they are so straightforward and matter of fact.
The highs and lows of a VLCD can seem so amplified when you are in the thick of it and I know I can be guilty of letting feelings and fears "snowball" into what seems to me to be a life and death struggle. Thanks for reminding me that I both need and lack perspective sometimes.

Thanks Karion (aka Yoda)
Laura
xx

 

[KD]

Awww, thank you Laura. I feel so passionately about all this, it's lovely when I hear that others have taken the time to read it. Cheers.

 

[Heaven can wait]

Karion
I'm sorry I dont really know your story, but I am sure its facinating! Could you please just run through what weight you were, how long it took to lose it and how , what weight you are now and how long you have maintained it ?
Thanks

 

[Just Do It]

This is the best thread ever, KD, I am hanging on your every word.

"If you can be truly selfish about it, then you have a higher chance of succeeding because you don’t rely on others and your motivation comes solely from within"

(I don't know how to quote properly)

I totally agree with you, I really feel that I am succeeding in LL because I have switched into Selfish mode. This is new territory for me but for me it goes hand in hand with self esteem and it is all driving me to success. I feel, and I hope it isn't an empty hope, that my new selfishness and self esteem has changed me so much I will be driven to maintain.

Last Sunday I had the biggest fight not to break abstinence, it was the closest I have come to self-sabotage, I think it gave me a small insight into my mental processes.

I enjoy one of the new make of shakes, vanilla, banana, strawberry, mixed up with sparkling water to make a mousse. I accidentally put too much water in and the result was sloppy, I was faced with a choice, eat it as it was and not enjoy it, throw it away and waste a pack, or break open another pack and thicken it.

I chose to thicken it with about a third of another pack. As I did it I was aware of a glimmer of guilt, it was more my mind trying to make me feel guilty. I rationalised that caloriewise it would be less than 40 and would make no difference.

The guilt tried to rear its head for the rest of the day. I had to suppress it, it was looking for an excuse to go off the rails. I could sense it was trying to get me to head for the cheese. But another part of my mind was telling me of the hot chocolate shake waiting at the end of the day. I managed to push that thought to the front of my mind. But I realised that some bizarre part of me wanted to make me fail, but where is that part and how do I get rid of it.

I know that is very simplistic and some wise person will be able to point to ego states, but I didn't really get to grips with that due to a very absent LLC ( I go to the new one tomorrow night!!)

Any way I just wanted to get it out of my system by typing it out. I am so close to goal now as well, it is just a matter of me deciding to stop, should I do 3lbs , 5 or 6. And the sabotage bit is probably because I too am terrified of returning to the real world.

And Mrs L, your post reminded me of something Barr Hewlett mentioned in her online interview which I found very interesting, but haven't followed up on. She said that the 4 main addictions are based around Fermented food, Chocolate, Cheese, Bread and Alcohol. She didn't go into any more depth but I found it a fascinating thought.

And your point about eating something you don't really enjoy is something I have been mulling over as I contemplate returning to food. I think that is going to figure in a big way for me.

Please continue with this great thread, I feel it is precisely what I need to hear to help me with my journey. Thank you so much.


Claire

 

[KD]

* it takes me AGES to feel full (as in several hours) so overeating catches up (with my system) eventually - but it's certainly A LOT longer than the 20 minutes that every diet book seems to mention;

I remember thinking exactly the same thing, but I was doing it wrong. The idea isn’t to eat until full, just to eat until satisfied. This takes practice as our bodies and minds are so confused.

So what is satisfied?

Satisfied is when you aren’t hungry anymore. You’re not full, nowhere near. You just feel neutral. At the beginning you need to really concentrate on what you are eating, giving it your full attention. You do need to eat slowly and mindfully with few distractions. I’m not good at that. Have too much going on, but it is important and it’s only until you suss it out. You may even want to start with picking one meal a day to do this challenge.

It’s only when you get used to the signals that you can retrain your body, and it’s difficult to really ‘hear’ them unless you give them your full attention.

So what should you be listening out for? I have a few signals. When I am truly hungry I enjoy food to its fullest. I notice it more and love it. After a while, I get a little distracted. This is one of my signals that I’m getting close to my ‘satisfied’ level. The food doesn’t taste quite as good. It's still good, but I'm not thinking or tasting it in quite the same way. It's not as delicious as those first few bites. The food starts becoming something I’m doing whilst thinking or doing something else.

Remember, as a guideline we only need about the size of a fistful of food for a meal. A fistful being the food we imagine as whirled in the blender.

There are times when you will want to eat more than that, and that’s okay too. Sometimes we continue to stay hungry after that fistful. So, at the beginning, I would serve myself up the fistful, eat it, concentrate on it and listen to my body. If it was still ‘starving’ or not satisfied, I might just give a 15 minute pause, just to be sure. Then decide whether I need something else.

This is just at the beginning. As you get intune with yourself, you work out what level are on and what you will probably need.

So, you aim to eat until neutral, neither hungry nor full
You take time and listen to your body
Eat slower
Eat to satisfy your hunger now, rather than to make sure you have enough to last you until the next meal.

Most importantly though, this is very hard to do until you have done some other stages ie learning not to eat compulsively, and knowing exactly why you are eating. If you eat for anything other than hunger you are doing it for another reason. We don't all eat just for hunger though, even when we reach the 'normal eater' status , but you do need to know why you are doing it, because if there is anything other than hunger triggering your desire to eat, then it's virtually impossible to stop when the hunger goes.

 

[KD]

Karion
I'm sorry I dont really know your story, but I am sure its facinating! Could you please just run through what weight you were, how long it took to lose it and how , what weight you are now and how long you have maintained it ?
Thanks

Oh goodness. Lifetime of dieting, binging, starving, trying non-dieting methods and failing because I approached them in the wrong way.

Sorry didn't do LL, did Cambridge (not that that really matters) so I'm gatecrashing the LL forum. Sept 2004 started Cambridge at nearly 19 stone. Stopped a few times along the way for various reasons then reached a goal 9 months after starting. Went through the maintenance steps and a few months later decided to do Cambridge again before giving up the fags (damage limitation). Decided I liked the newer weight so stayed there. 8 stone lost in total and now I maintain. The most I have put on has been 5lbs (first Xmas after goal), but now I'm can maintain within 3lbs either way.

I maintain by eating normally. I don't diet, I don't eat diet foods. I just follow my body. Hopefully, this thread and others shows how I've managed that to date and maybe some of my thoughts will work for others?

It has been a rather bumpy road, but nice smooth grassy land these days

 

[KD]

Oh dear, Mrs L is going to have a fit when she sees all my ramblings. It's not my fault. Something wrong with my computer..a bug there

if I am deriving very little pleasure from what I am eating, chances are, it isn't what I want (or need);

Spot on there. Your body will tell you what it needs when you are fully intune with it. Despite what some IE methods say, I do not believe that your body will ever tell you that it needs crisps, biscuits, or other unhealthy foods. Your mind will though, and sometimes we need to satisfy our minds too. Even normal eaters do that…but you do need to know the difference.

The unhealthy foods aren’t banned, you have the choice to eat anything you want. After all, it is your body, but with choice comes responsibility. Depends how much you respect your body and want to look after it.

Personally, I want to give my body good fuel, but sometimes I want to give my mind some unhealthy extras too, but it’s not often these days. Still, I know I can if I want. It’s my choice and I can control as much or as little of it as I want.

it's amazing how LITTLE food I need day-to-day - that's taking A LOT of mental adjustment;

I find that. It’s quite incredible, but I have days I eat lots and days I eat little. Just works that way. I don’t purposely cut down.

 

[KD]

what I eat affects my self-esteem (more on this later - thanks to Gillian Riley for insight)."

Gillian Riley is fab I didn’t find it the whole answer, but it really got me onto the road of non-dieting recovery without heaping on a load of weight first which is often the case with other non-dieting methods.

 

[Just Do It]

KD,

Please don't think you are rambling, this is precisely the sort of practical advice that we so need.
It is the day to day stuff, like the size of the portions and the concentrating on eating, these are like golden nuggets of information.


Don't stop.

Claire

 

[Mrs Lard]

Blimey! Oh Riley! I am sitting in an internet cafe - had to escape the building site that is my home/office - and I am sitting here with a massive grin on my face. I thought it would take me a minute or so to catch up on this thread....LOL!!!!! I know I am!

Is this a top thread or what (even though I say so myself, ha ha)?!?!?!?!!? Karion, how could I have a fit when there is SOOOOO much TOP QUALITY (trying to think of a good noun that reflects the treasure chest that is here and can't) ... xxxx here to absorb?! It's incredible.

Sadly, can't respond right now, as I must order stuff for the builders (not their lunch!).

One thing I will say is that there are definitely a few of us who really DO want to get to the heart of the matter regarding eating and I say "type it and they will come"!!!! So glad the others have popped in.

I know I've said it before, Karion, but you ARE the business!! And you have a captive audience here for all your ramblings, which are anything BUT!!!

I sense you're a down to earth woman so am trying to think of a way to demonstrate massive appreciation and admiration without it sounding cheesy mc cheesy. And I've yet to master all the shortcuts to show those little figures! There was a reason I first read the Lazy Person's Guide to Overeating!!! Not so much lazy as time poor, right now.

Anyway, I too am a fast typist but my time is up!

Will be back later.

Applause all round, methinks!! We can crack this, we really can.

PS am going to send my chums over from the Highs and Lows of Development, just in case they haven't seen this.

Mrs Lxxxxxx

 

[KD]

It is the day to day stuff, like the size of the portions and the concentrating on eating, these are like golden nuggets of information.


Don't stop.

Claire

Thanks. Yes, I think this sort of thing is really important, and there is so little of it around. I learnt the hard way, grabbing bits of info here and there, making mistakes, until I worked it through.

One of the biggies for me was really taking on board what it all meant.

There are so many 'quotes' going around, but I would just read them and not really put them in place.

Then I got to the place where I would think about them after I had done it all wrong. At least that was one step forward.

The thing is to remember to take it slow and not to be hard on yourself. Every minute of the day is a chance to work on it again until you perfected it.

 

[KD]

Is this a top thread or what (even though I say so myself, ha ha)?!?!?!?!!? Karion, how could I have a fit when there is SOOOOO much TOP QUALITY

Aww. Don't know what to say. I love talking about maintenance. I'm so chuffed that this works, can't help but share.

Thank you Mrs L, and you are more than welcome.

 

[SandraEG]

Yes - really enjoying the thread.

Re: portion size - I like the ones that are simple or visual. A portion of protein (meat, vege alternatives) is about the size of your palm (thickness and diameter), a portion of carbohydrates is about a rolled up fist size (I think). Fruit is 1 medium piece (i.e. apple) or 2 small pieces (i.e. plum or apricot or satsuma). I can't remember who talks about this - is it the Food Doctor? Someone like that anyway...

Karrion - 1 question. Is there a difference with hormonal eating or is that just AD on drugs? I ask especially about sugar cravings during that time of the month. I must admit I gave in yesterday during the worst day of my cycle and of course I noted that I felt sluggish afterwards but at the same time the sugar did seem to feed something in me - I felt calmer and able to cope with the rest of the day. In the world of food I would think that would still happen but today when I don't need the sugar, I wouldn't have it. Of course, the problem is when you are supposed to be on abstinence...

Thanks!

 

[KD]

To be honest Sandra, I haven't really read up or thought through the whole hormonal issue. Post menopausal, and I don't seem to have a problem.

My thoughts are, when maintaining not abstinence you follow your body, but, you do need to make sure your mind isn't messed up with previous assumptions. It's my TOTM, so I must have chocolate.

I guess you will need to experiment. So if you feel your body needs something sweet and sugary because of hormone changes, try different types of 'sweet and sugary'. See what works and what doesn't. Could it be that a teaspoon of honey works just as well?

Remember, that when maintaining (especially the non-diet way), you can have anything you want, but you need to know why you want it before you make a good choice. You need to be sure that you are satisfying a craving for chocolate (for instance) because your body needs something in the chocolate, not just because you like chocolate and it's 'something you do' once a month. That's not to say chocolate is out of bounds if other things work better. Nothing is out of bounds. It's just about learning why we want it and making the decision based on that.

The only way you can do this is experiment with different types of sweet foods, and different portion sizes, or you will never know whether you are just kidding yourself or not.

It may be that just one square of dark chocolate is enough to satisfy the hormones....maybe not.

When you finish LL completely then you'll have the chance to experiment with food and work out exactly what you need, what you want, and what's making your body and mind tick.

It's fun

As for the fist thing. It is only a general guideline. You can have 2,3,4 fists if you want. Whatever you need...but I found that at the beginning we are so confused about what a normal portion is, it worked to start with a fist and go up or down as needed.

 

[Mrs Lard]

Bonsoir everyone!

It's SOOO late but just wanted to let Karion know that her words are permeating through my brain (and everyone else's questions/contributions).

I don't think I am going to have time to get back on here until the weekend - sigh - but one thing I want to add about TOTM.

I found that bananas were fantastic (never was a biscuit or chocolate person until post-LL!!! Imagine!) as are Medjool dates for that sweet fix but without absorbing anything processed and fatty.

I am still without any TOTM although had some phantom pains whilst travelling to London (well, the pain was real, not sure if it will lead to anything) which then made me think about a sweet treat and, in the end, I had a cup of tea and a banana, as well as a free biscuit that was so thin and small but it was enough to satisfy the craving so that I didn't then go bonkers on muffins/cakes/biscuits.

I have to say that I often used food to take me away from the hormone hell but in a numbing way rather than in a feed the craving way.

Not sure if that gives any insight!

Mrs Lxxxxxxxx

 

[canireallydothis!!]

Wicked postings, Im in awe at this diary, its the best!!!

More later x