Stalls and Gains. Need help

[nerys-]

I am not following any sort of official diet. I just got sick of being fat sick of failed diets so I made my own. The Math Diet. from what I understand 3500cals is a pound. +3500 +1lb -3500 -1lb. thats my diet.

so I decided to see just HOW LOW a calorie intake I could do a day and not feel hungry. I was quite shocked when I tried 1200 calories and was fine. 1000 calories fin 800calories STILL FINE. I feared going any lower for nutritional reasons.

I did compensate by eating mass quantities of ultra low calorie foods. lots of tomato's Spinach and veggies. Especially tomato's 30cals a pop and Spinach WHOLE DAMNED BAG 35 calories. man I am glad for that as I love spinach.

anyway its been working extremely well. Been doing it since september 18th lost just shy of 49pounds so far from 418.8 to 470.2 this morning.

I am running into an annoyance. The math is bothering me so I want to smooth it out.

I will have a steady loss of .8 to 1.5 pounds per day for 4-5 days and then "stall" sometimes "GAIN" 1-2 pounds and stall for 2-3 days. Then resume losing.

what irks me for example is this one time last week I gains 2.6 pounds back one day.

what irks me is I DID NOT EAT 2.6 pounds of mass the previous day. this is a logic fail for me if I did not even consume 2.6 pounds of food the previous day even if my body converted 100% of what I ate to fat how could I possibly gain more than I ate ??

now off course the next day I lose a pound then 1.5 pounds by the 3rd day I was net positive loss again. typical happens almost every week. (usually to a slightly smaller degree)

then it hit me. LIQUIDS I easily consume 5-10 pounds of liquids a day depending on how active I am. Then I noticed during the times I gained I was not urinating as much as I might normally.

so I must be retaining liquids temporarily.

how do I stop this? how do I even this out? I don't EVER want to see that number go up. Period.

I tried going hard core and forcing myself through the "stall zone" as I call it. when I hit my 4th day I will do 500-600 calories (and actually eat more volume ie I up the spinach tomato veggy intake) I don't ever feel hungry since I know thats bad. I eat 5-6 times a day.

this does have an impact and one time I avoided a stall but not always

All my liquid are sugar free. Usually something like wawa green tea (I swear if you sliced me open I would bleed the stuff its so good) or turkeyhill white tea or wally world crystal light knock off.

I pretty much avoid soda at all costs.

I would rather see a slightly smaller but CONTINUOUS daily loss than have these gains and 2-3 day stalls.

suggestions? ie what am I doing wrong? lately I have been almost LIVING off white rice and chick chop suey. very low cal very nutritional and very tasty and filling. it has accelerated my weight loss.

other things I eat. EB's with spinach and tuna and tomato's for breakfast. sometimes rice spinach onion and mushrooms mixed together with tomato side.

lots of chicken and fish. no beef no pork. sometimes turkey if I get a good deal on it. ie only meats where I get about 4oz for 100calories.

100cal yogurts here and their. a piece of fruit here and their (my inbetween meals) etc..

what am I doing wrong? what is causing these annoying temporary gains and stalls. They are very demoralizing even though I KNOW them are temporary.

Thanks!

 

[BREN]

Nerys, congrats on your great loss so far that's fabulous!

Given that you have alot to loose, so reasonable heavy (not offending) and that you are 6ft 3, I am very surprised that you can survive on such a low cal diet.

Most sites recommend no lower that 1200 cals per day for both nutritional reasons, and you dont want your body to think that it is staving. When this happens it holds onto all food and fluids consumed. 'My fitness pal', is a really good web site to help you track and set your weight loss targets. It calculates and adjusts your daily intake of cals with your physical activity.

Your body is loosing because you are consuming low cal but you are right in thinking the gain is because your calorie intake is not quite accurate for you.

Weight loss works by loosing fluid, then a little fat, stabilising (plateu) and then again through that cycle over and over. Keep up your water, take a multi vit and walking is enough.

I hope that I have been a little helpful for you. Once again congrats and good luck with your journey.

Bren

 

[BREN]

You are right in trying to eat more times in the day to speed up your metabolism;

Perhaps try;
Breakfast 350 cal
Snack 100 cal
Lunch 400 cal
Snack 100 cal
Snack 50 cal
Dinner 450 cal

That's 1450 cal for the day. You are very tall so trust me. The only way to beat a stall is to tell your body that it's not going to starve, to do this you need to have a higher cal day even by just including a 1600 cal day once a week you should loose well.

Bren

 

[nerys-]

oh I don't starve and my body does not think it is. I eat massive and I mean massive plates of food. its just ultra low calorie stuff.

Since I am doing well on the 800-1000cals I plan to stick with that. I usually have a 200-300 calorie breakfast then 2-3 100cal "mini meals" throughout the day and then a 300-400cal dinner.

if I do feel even a tiny bit hungry I eat some pickles or a tomato (virtually zero calorie in the bigger picture)

I try to drink at least a gallon of fluid a day but always manage at least 3/4 gallon.

I don't want to slow the weight loss down so I don't want to up the calories unless thats going to speed up the loss for me??

I take 2 vitamins daily one when I wake up and one when I goto bed. Although I am eating high nutrition stuff I am concerned about that so I started on the vitamins immediately when I started the diet.

I think the weight loss was a bit faster when I was doing more fish and less chicken so I may try going back to that for a while and see what happens.

I also noticed that if I indulges every now and then say once every other week that although it would stall me for a day or two the weight loss would be rapid afterwards. So I plan to incorporate that more often as well. No need too this time of year we have all decided that thanksgiving the day after and christmas eve are free days

I just need the weight gone. Health matters be damned. I figure slightly under eating but compensating with vitamins and good nutrition is better than being over 400 pounds

what I need is motivation and the only motivation that works for me is that number being lower every time I see it.

an example of what I eat. This morning at the local food place (bensalem meats GREAT place) I found these turkey sausage patties. 3 for 80 calories. so I decided to make something with them.

I cooked up some Rice Spinach Mushrooms Onions and a habanero (man those things got some goooood heat!) with garlic salt pepper and basil with the sausages as a side.

Total calories about 260-275 so I count it as 275. You know how you typically have 2 sizes of dinner plates. Regular and Large? well take a large one and I FILLED THE PLATE and thickly. I am stuffed right now and that takes a lot cause I can REALLY eat though I imagine my stomach has shrunk a bit over the last 2 months at least I hope it has.

Tonight I am going to make Tilapia with lemon lime basil salt pepper 100cals with an entire bag of veggies (steamer bag of cauliflower broccoli carrots) 100cals and half a cup of rice and spinach about 90cals and a tomato sliced up (addicted to tomato's) 30cals.

total 320cals.

I eat something every few hours even if I am not really hungry. ie to prevent me from EVER feeling hungry and keeping my body from thinking its starving.

early this morning I had a banana 100cals and later today I will have a granola bar 100cals. (I try to get things right at 100cals makes the math easy)

Either later tonight or before going to bed (depending on when I have dinner) I will probably have another tomato.

so my total calorie intake for today should be just shy of 825cals.

I got these thin sandwich buns (no HFC and 100cals) that are just amazing but I had to stop eating them they seemed to stall me pretty solidly no matter how low I made my calories. So I avoid them now.

Having a higher cal day once a week seems like a good idea.

should I do it the day before a predicted stall (too late by then??) or 1 or 2 days BEFORE the predicted stall?

 

[BREN]

Nerys

will PM you later when I have more time to write. Off to work now.

Bren
X

 

[nerys-]

thanks!

 

[soozsb]

You should google why low calorie diets don't work and see what they have to say about it.

I know that you don't feel like you are starving, but the bodies normal reaction to very low cal eating is that the body itself thinks that its starving and then it goes into starvation mode. Then it will not lose the weight you want it to or does very slowly. It s something in humanitites genes left over from cavemen days when they did not always have enough to eat and their bodies survived living off of their body fat and nutrients to survive.
Anyways: if you want to lose weight fast have you though of trying low carb? You can lose A LOT of weight on low carbing.
If you watch your carbs and eat no more than 20 grams per day, you can actually eat a lot and still lose tons of weight on it. That way your body won't go into "starvation mode" anymore and will just continue to lose weight. Give it a try for a week and you will see the awesome results. You eat only meats w/o starches, sugars or sauces on them, no fruit, milk, and only a small salad twice a day, lots of water and unsweetened teas and you will see big results. Good luck.

 

[nerys-]

well I have lost 48 pounds in 2 months (the most i have EVER lost on ANY diet including low carbing) and am still losing at a rapid rate??

I tried low carb. I LOVED IT but it has 2 problems. Extremely expensive and I stalled badly a LOT. Eventually the weight loss pretty much stopped. after a 2.5 week stall I gave up on low carbing. Pitty too cause it really did work well to start for the first 4 months I was doing it.

Logically all diets must inevitably be low calorie. the only way to get rid of 1 pound is to burn 3500 more cals than you use.

is this incorrect? I am seriously lacking in knowledge on this stuff. I am literally flying by the seat of my pants on this.

a few other consequences of this diet.

I have more energy I sleep better (not much) and my cravings decline

though a negative is if I cheat the cravings SURGE BACK like a vengeance and i mean badly. But as long as I don't do that the cravings stay under control.

 

[IrishMum]

OMG. You are seriously undereating. You have lost a massive amount of weight very quickly- butI have a feeling your 'stalls' are going to become a lot more common as your body begins to think theres a famine going on. A side-effect of starvation mode is a lack of appetite/hunger. You have no cravings because your body has gone into a survival mode by sending messages to your brain telling you not to feel hungry- the fact that your craving return 'with a vengeance' when you indulge a little is proof of this.
And how on earth do you 'know' you're not doing your body serious damage? Your body NEEDS a certain amount of calories each day to FUNCTION, never mind to do everything else you might do on a regular day.
Whats the hurry anyway? If you're starving yourself to get to your goal, how are you going to survive when you get there- continue starving? Because thats the only way you'll be able to avoid instant weight gain as soon as you start eating 'normally' again.
Please read up on starvation mode, and VLCD's to see the side-effects and harm you could be causing?

 

[nerys-]

We already have plans to slowly increase calories and slowly introduce normal foods as we approach goal weight so the transition will be slow.

is there a good URL to read about these effects? The only reason I am doing this is its the ONLY method that has so far worked. I am basically replicating my dad's patterns after he got gastric bypass except we are eating a lot more volume off course.

how do you prevent starvation mode? certain foods? nutrition?

I am actually eating quite a lot just very low calorie in large volume. "so far" energy actually seems to be up I am more active now because I feel better.

what kind of damage? if its relatively minor I can liver with it (whats being 418 pounds going to do to me?)

what I seriously lack is good solid information

 

[BREN]

So nerys, has your dad had gastric bypass and you are eating what he is? Not sure if I read that properly???..... Or was this the food he DID eat a while ago when he just had the surgery?

Stay focused and keep going with that powerful determination. You seem to be really set on loosing this weight and that's a very good power, that drive for wanting to change.

You will find that balance in food. It's just persistence. Is this an option for you;
2 weetbix and strawberries or porridge for breakfast
fruit or carrot and celery sticks for a morning snack
chicken and salad for lunch
banana or yoghurt afternoon snack #1
muesli bar / dry crackers afternoon snack #2
vege stir fry

2ltrs of water and a diet drink (can) along with your multi vitamin.

30 min walk everyday?

Bren
x

 

[IrishMum]

Good menu Bren, I'd recommend some form of protein (to keep muscle healthy) with the dinner though? Lean meat/fish/eggs or beans are good options?

Nerys, you might want to study the nutritional content of your food a bit more, low-cal isn't necessarily the 'best' option when choosing foods? A bit of balancing cals may be necessary if for example you swap a white bread roll for a granary one? The granary would usually have a little more cals, but fill you up for much longer and providing much more fibre? Little things like that?
Read up a little on low-gi foods too. They're usually pretty low-cal, and more satisfying than other options?
Snacking on things like lean chicken or prawns (i.e. lean protein) will keep you full until your next meal. Fruit is fine, but not very filling? Your portions of meat are very small- if you're filling up on veg only- add a larger piece. Stick to that size if you're adding some carbs (pasta/rice/potatoes)?
Swap white rice/noodles/bread/pasta for wholegrain versions (complex carbs)- it'll keep your digestive system running smoothly, and keep you fuller for longer with smaller portions as they take longer to digest than 'simple carb' options.
Theres no point getting to goal but ending up ill?
(I hope you don't think I'm being 'snotty' here, but I think you may be setting yourself up for disaster if you keep this kind of eating up?)
I hope you're successful in getting there, you've done fantastically so far, but I don't want you to stall then give up?
My dietitian once said to me "You didn't get to 245lbs overnight, you won't get to 140lbs overnight. Take it slow and your body will keep it off easier". A loss of 1-2lbs weekly is the recommended maximum weight loss to prevent any strain/damage to your body, and no reputable doctor/nutritionist will recommend anyone eats less than 1200cals a day? I understand your argument that being hugely overweight is surely a huge strain already, but why put your already under pressure body under even bigger pressure by eating less than it needs?
I'm glad to see you've thought ahead to the maintenence/re-introduction phase of your journey. Most 'dieters' don't, then wonder why they regain the weight after returning to eating the way they used to before their losses.
Please God if you get there, you'll have worked out enough and learned enough to keep the weight off?
Good luck!

EDIT: Sorry about the epic post!!

 

[nerys-]

yes I keep grinding into my sisters heads (and mine as I do so) that if we return to eating what we did LOGIC says there can be only one result. we will BE as heavy as we were. Keep smacking your heat against the wall its going to keep hurting

I don't eat ANY bread at all. I found some no HFCS 100call rolls that are wonderful but not even those any more. For some reason bread stalls me big time. So I avoid it.

porridge? I know the world but not its reality connection (ie think goldy locks) is it oatmeal ? I LOVE oatmeal but the cals are too high so I avoid it.

on suggestion I bumped the cals to 1400 and freaked at 3 days gains but today I lose almost all that gain so I am going to stick with it and see what happens.

as for getting ill. I am already on track to be permanently ill. 418 pounds can only last so long before you body breaks down. I figure once I am a healthy weight a healthy body will follow easily enough. I am a tough critter.

I am not following the diet my dad followed his doctor said it would be directly unhealthy for me. I trust his knowledge and experience.

while we were eating similar or lower calories than he was we were eating great VOLUMES so that we would not feel hungry (I was not aware that you could be hungry and not feel it ie starvation mode without knowing it)

I got to 418 in 9 months. I plan if all goes well to reverse it in the same time period if at all humanly possible

why do the stress? well I have a very strong body. I mean "unusually" strong. so better to stress it while its still strong than to wait till I am weak and not be able too.

stress motivates me. Excites me. Keeps me going. I WOULD NOT SURVIVE on 1-2 pounds loss a week. It just would not work for me. that means it would take me over 100 weeks to get to goal mass thats over 2 years. Just not going to happen.

I need to triple that rate minimum or I will go psychotic. I don't mind a little stress or a little "illness" along the way to accomplish that goal.

I never had a problem maintaining weight. thats easy for me. See my main post for how I gained the weight massive lifestyle change without alter eating style. My bad lack of knowledge etc..

I fixed that pretty quick but the weight was already here. getting rid of it has been a nightmare since.

I like epic posts. lots to read lots to learn keeps things interesting.

I will go to great lengths to get rid of this weight. I will avoid permanent damage (because that just dumb to do that) but anything else is fair game if it gets me my objective.

My body can take a lot. heck I don't even get colds. no idea why I just don't the whole house gets sick except me. Lucky I guess. Well now its time to call in those cards. Now its time for that luck health whatever to work for me.

 

[IrishMum]

Firstly- I am SO glad you decided to bump up your cals a bit- even thought the initial jump on the scales scared you!
Breads & pasta etc. don't agree with me either, so I can't criticise you for avoiding them, but as carbs are 'brain' food, I try to get plenty in my veg intake. I usually have at least 6 different types of veg throughout the day (salad & cooked) so hopefully that'll be enough?
Porridge is basically oats, and I agree the high-ish cal content can scare people off- BUT it will keep you full for ages, and maybe do away with the need for a mid-morning snack- so it all balances out in the end? It's like I said about making 'good' food choices (swapping white bread for granary/wholemeal), some balancing may be needed to get as much nutrients into us as possible?
My main bugbear was how little you were eating. My other concern is you talk of eating vast volumes of food to keep yourself full- all you're really doing is filling an already overstretched stomach (overstretched from a period where you massively overate), now you're simply filling it with low-cal foods? I'd try to learn a bit about what a 'normal' portion size is, and what foods will 'fill' you up without 'filling' you up- if you know what I mean? My fear is if you're relying on bulky low-cal foods, you may slip back into eating higher-cal foods later on?
If you know what foods will help keep you full while not overstretching your stomach, then you're more likely to get full quicker as your stomach will return to it's original size?
I hope I'm not coming across as too 'preachy', I'm by no means perfect, and still learning! It's all 'food for thought'!
I hope your health luck holds out until you get to where you want to be!

 

[nerys-]

well the trick was to prevent us from feeling hungry. if we don't FEEL hungry we won't cheat. We won't Crave we won't have a desire too.

once we are entrenched in the diet once the numbers are morally supportive the plan is to switch out to higher calorie foods but smaller portions IE same calories smaller more varied portions slowly.

this way as time goes on our plates get smaller and smaller approaching "NORMAL" levels but our calorie intake remains stable.

as we do this our stomach's will naturally shrink.

I have found that if you just slam the volume count to normal levels the body rebels the brain rebels.

preach all you want. I am a sponge for information as long as I can validate the info.

Veggies are not a problem for me. I am a bit obsessive with veggies. I like veggies more than I like meat but I won't give up meat either

I have a whole "plan" layed out that keeps us motivated and that slowly transitions us to higher cal normal food in normal proportions shrinking our stomachs while keeping moral and motivation high.

I am pretty good with will power IF it works and so far this is so I am going bull strong forward with it.

my sister is another story. VERY LITTLE will power. it was critical to control cravings and hunger.

I jumped right from 800 to 1400 cals. Freaked at the gains but stuck with it. I fear if I did that to her she would say "screw this" and cave to the desires for regular food.

she has a very serious issue with food. I was not aware of how serious till recently. She pretty much thinks of food at all times. I was making her breakfast and she was already asking about when we are going to order lunch at work.

its going to be very hard to get rid of this thought process. I don't even really know HOW. She is sticking to the diet the scale does not lie. so I am hoping if she does it long enough and see's good enough results that it will take care of itself but my gut tells me it won't be that easy.

Psychology is not my field :-(

 

[IrishMum]

Psychology might not be your field but you sure know how to think! LOL!
I have to say- you seem to have thought this through really well? You know the problems you both have, and have looked for ways to 'beat' them. You have a plan in place for when you get near to goal to ready yourself for the rest of your life. You listen (even if you don't agree ) to other peoples musings, and take on board what you feel is relevant and will work for you. Your devotion to your sister and her battle is touching, and shows what a selfless person you are!
You have my utmost respect.:happy096:

 

[soozsb]

I wish you and your sister all the luck inthe world. I am sending my good vibes to you both in hopes that you both will succeed. I am sure with your support and help she will make it and so will you. Good luck to you both and continued success.

 

[BREN]

Nerys, good on you for kicking your sisters butt too. Maybe she and you should go and have a couple of counselling sessions. Your sis sounds like she has issues to realise and resolve. Just a thought.

Glad you gave the higher cals a go, I really am.

Irishmum, agreed that the dinner should have a protein. If not and vege only on the days nerys is already full at the end of the day. And congrats on your loss also!

Bren
XX

 

[nerys-]

oh We love meat so will always have some protein. Hmm I never actually thought about it or checked I assume fish and chicken have plenty of protein? We avoid any beef since its more than twice the cals by volume and a 2oz piece of beef would be an insult more than anything else so we just don't have any.

She has beat the FIRST massive hurdle though. "SHE IS DOING IT" so while she may be thinking about food at pretty much all times of the day "SHE IS RESISTING IT" and succeeding. That has got to be a pretty huge step forward.

That is why I am SO worried about stalls etc.. I prep them and tell them they are normal. In our journals I gave instructions never to record "gains" only losses. so as they review the journal they only see the numbers going down. got to fight the mind game as well as the body game as the mind will always beat the body except in death

I can handle stalls. it just makes me angrier and more determined to defeat them.

 

[BREN]

Well you summed it up you are both doing this and it's working. Lets hope the thought's about food change along the way so your sister can maintain at goal.

Chicken and fish l have a lot of protein. Two serves of protein a day is okay. Some people are strict about incorporating it at every meal. I did today;
yogurt, then cheese at lunch and legumes for dinner.